2021 Alpine F1 Team

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Scorpaguy
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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Cyril taking the walk...that surprises me.

I think they will rue the day...had a good 2020.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:02 am
Cyril taking the walk...that surprises me.

I think they will rue the day...had a good 2020.
Not at all. 2020 had it's progress, but that was due only thanks to having Daniel Ricciardo and Ocon there, and specifically how Daniel requested a car that was harder to drive but unlocks more speed. And second of all, and more importantly, the undeniable fact that all Ferrari powered outfits - for the most part of the season - has by all means completely vanished from the picture in the general top 5 standings, and then there is the issue of RedBull having repetitive DNF's and some covid related issues with other drivers.

Yes, Renault was reliable and stable to find themselves in being able to perform, and honor is due where it belongs.

That said, Abiteboul has not been professional in his position by any means, and always seemed much more like somebody actually holding progress back instead of being the factor that causes improvement.

I will very much stand by the fact that Ferrari was vastly more competitive under Arrivabene than it was under Binotto. Binotto was, and is, the wrong man at the wrong place.

Likewise, Abiteboul was the wrong man at the wrong place from the beginning. Hell, he was the wrong man at the wrong place at what was it, Caterham? aswell. I never got how that guy got at Enstone, but that's beyond me.

I think appointing 'Mr Suzuki' is the most promising and positive thing to happen at Renault right now.
Ricciardo leaving is a pain, no doubt. Alonso is a great aquirement and I think this new CEO is absolutely magnificient, and to me finally sounds like the right person at the right place.

Just as I believe Capito is the right man at the right place right now at Williams.

Ask me, Abiteboul @ Renault (or quite frankly in F1 in general) falls under the very same categories as Claire @ Williams, Kaltenborn @ Sauber, Binotto @ Ferrari, Mattiaci @ Ferrari, and so on.

I wouldn't concider it like Whitmarsh @ Mclaren for example. Though Mclaren could have done better, they could have been far, far worse. I think Mclaren didn't fare well under the return of Ron Dennis either.

It's good to hear and read 'fresh', decent, blood coming in to F1.

It makes me much more positive and happy for my favourite sport to read about this people over the negatives that are in and have been in the sport like Mazepin, Storey, Ericsson, Palmer, etc.

Personally, i believe actions like we are seeing now @ Alpine are what SHOULD have been happening 5 years ago, when Renault was announcing their supposed 'aim' at becoming WDC and WCC again, as i never have seen anything even remotely indicating anything like that but empty words.

Instead, Alpine as the current Enstone outfit, actually is showing signs of putting arrows in the basket and aim for the bullseye.

From all teams that to me are indicating progress for the coming like 5 years, both Alpine and Aston Martin show the MOST of actually 'investing' to get there.

Neither Williams, Ferrari, Haas or Alfa Romeo are showing anything in that area.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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I was surprised that he's gone but by no means do I think he was performing above average. Think he was given his 5 years and should have done better.

Like your point about "were would Renault have finished if not for a complete failure of Ferrari".

Disagree with the Riccardo thing. You can't give Dan credit and not the rest of the team. He was part of the team.

Also Mattiaci was given like 3 months. So he was setup to fail.

Wonder what this means for the Technical leads Fry, Taffin? Feel as though they finally have a good team going.
Last edited by diffuser on Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Scorpaguy
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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I enjoy the differing opinions on threads as these...time will tell. I am having a hard time imagining Mr Suzuki gets up to speed...hope I am wrong for Nando's sake. My prediction is that Alpine finishes lower this year than last in the WCC...leadership and budget seem to be more valuable than driver skill.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:39 am
I enjoy the differing opinions on threads as these...time will tell. I am having a hard time imagining Mr Suzuki gets up to speed...hope I am wrong for Nando's sake. My prediction is that Alpine finishes lower this year than last in the WCC...leadership and budget seem to be more valuable than driver skill.
So none of the guys Williams or McLaren have picked up have any F1 experience. TP is a manager with technical knowledge. He's not doing any of the creative work, he just needs to understand it. Taffin and Fry will be more technical.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:39 am
I enjoy the differing opinions on threads as these...time will tell. I am having a hard time imagining Mr Suzuki gets up to speed...hope I am wrong for Nando's sake. My prediction is that Alpine finishes lower this year than last in the WCC...leadership and budget seem to be more valuable than driver skill.
as diffuser mentions, it's not neccesarily the case of 'getting up to speed', it's managing.

And if I, as an outsider, look at how things have been going to the left and right throughout the F1 field in the past what, decade? then I tend to see some pretty 'expectable' results depending on who's 'at the helm'.

something that i 'recognise' is that in all cases, there's a big element of 'blame' culture, ego, and ABOVE ALL, standing like a tower above everything else: the absence of proper self-reflection and putting the blame on yourself.

'successfull' TP's - that doesnt mean that they have to win a GP btw - run the team as a team. When something goes wrong, they take the blame themselves just as much. Toto does that, Lauda does that, etc. They don't come up with lousy excuses, putting blame somewhere, like a lack of sponsors, a tire that goes, and above all, they stay professional.

I do not concider Abiteboul professional at all in that sense, the hostility between Abiteboul and RedBull was embarassing. It wasn't renault vs redbull, it was Abiteboul vs RedBull, and it was pretty sad. He should have stood high above that behaviour. If i recall, certain childish behaviour was present @ Caterham too, when they were beaten by Manor iirc.

The most important job for the TP is to have things running as a team, as a whole, seamlessly and glued.
Abiteboul tried to do that by egoistic and diva behaviour - this however is how i have experienced throughout the years, That it does NOT work on the LONG term, at all, and only causes friction. At best, the employees are 'pushed' to the limits of their acceptance of such behaviour, it does NOT mean they are pushed to the limits of their POTENTIAL.

I think 'mr Suzuki' is far more capable to guide people into the right direction, and have a gentle, unified spirit where people can flourish. And with that, they can be motivated to use the best of their potential, especially if everybody is motivated to do so, and there is no hostility, hostility suffocates lingering, unluckoed potential.
A side factor is that in this way, you suddenly will start seeing the people/elements that are not working in the chain.
Perhaps those people need a different form of or extra attention, or it turns out these are exactly the people who are holding back progress and as such need to be relieved or 'replaced'.

In more simple terms: i'd tend to lean towards Abiteboul being a guy that creates a 'tense, irritable and closed atmosphere, where every employee or department turns into a 'camp', and if i look at people like Brivio, then they fit much more into the people that creates unity and prosperity. Guys like Whitmarsh remind me of such characteristics, and looking at 'Mr Suzuki', i think he has that potential but also able to get the results they want: WINNING.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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Manoah2u wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:08 pm
Scorpaguy wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:39 am
I enjoy the differing opinions on threads as these...time will tell. I am having a hard time imagining Mr Suzuki gets up to speed...hope I am wrong for Nando's sake. My prediction is that Alpine finishes lower this year than last in the WCC...leadership and budget seem to be more valuable than driver skill.
as diffuser mentions, it's not neccesarily the case of 'getting up to speed', it's managing.

And if I, as an outsider, look at how things have been going to the left and right throughout the F1 field in the past what, decade? then I tend to see some pretty 'expectable' results depending on who's 'at the helm'.

something that i 'recognise' is that in all cases, there's a big element of 'blame' culture, ego, and ABOVE ALL, standing like a tower above everything else: the absence of proper self-reflection and putting the blame on yourself.

'successfull' TP's - that doesnt mean that they have to win a GP btw - run the team as a team. When something goes wrong, they take the blame themselves just as much. Toto does that, Lauda does that, etc. They don't come up with lousy excuses, putting blame somewhere, like a lack of sponsors, a tire that goes, and above all, they stay professional.

I do not concider Abiteboul professional at all in that sense, the hostility between Abiteboul and RedBull was embarassing. It wasn't renault vs redbull, it was Abiteboul vs RedBull, and it was pretty sad. He should have stood high above that behaviour. If i recall, certain childish behaviour was present @ Caterham too, when they were beaten by Manor iirc.

The most important job for the TP is to have things running as a team, as a whole, seamlessly and glued.
Abiteboul tried to do that by egoistic and diva behaviour - this however is how i have experienced throughout the years, That it does NOT work on the LONG term, at all, and only causes friction. At best, the employees are 'pushed' to the limits of their acceptance of such behaviour, it does NOT mean they are pushed to the limits of their POTENTIAL.

I think 'mr Suzuki' is far more capable to guide people into the right direction, and have a gentle, unified spirit where people can flourish. And with that, they can be motivated to use the best of their potential, especially if everybody is motivated to do so, and there is no hostility, hostility suffocates lingering, unluckoed potential.
A side factor is that in this way, you suddenly will start seeing the people/elements that are not working in the chain.
Perhaps those people need a different form of or extra attention, or it turns out these are exactly the people who are holding back progress and as such need to be relieved or 'replaced'.

In more simple terms: i'd tend to lean towards Abiteboul being a guy that creates a 'tense, irritable and closed atmosphere, where every employee or department turns into a 'camp', and if i look at people like Brivio, then they fit much more into the people that creates unity and prosperity. Guys like Whitmarsh remind me of such characteristics, and looking at 'Mr Suzuki', i think he has that potential but also able to get the results they want: WINNING.
It's more like Herding sheep!

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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It was known that Abiteboul was being moved to a less F1 centric job. My guess is he didn't like where he was being pushed. He tried to negotiate something better. When it became apparent that was NOT gonna happen he quit, to remove himself as the bridge to the new team he was going to be, in an effort to punish Alpine/Renault.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:56 pm
It was known that Abiteboul was being moved to a less F1 centric job. My guess is he didn't like where he was being pushed. He tried to negotiate something better. When it became apparent that was NOT gonna happen he quit, to remove himself as the bridge to the new team he was going to be, in an effort to punish Alpine/Renault.
While that might make a nice Netflix episode I seriously doubt that is what happened. The best way to leave a project is to empower it so it reflects best on yourself. If you leave it in a worse state that doesn’t make you look any better.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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RedNEO wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:14 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:56 pm
It was known that Abiteboul was being moved to a less F1 centric job. My guess is he didn't like where he was being pushed. He tried to negotiate something better. When it became apparent that was NOT gonna happen he quit, to remove himself as the bridge to the new team he was going to be, in an effort to punish Alpine/Renault.
While that might make a nice Netflix episode I seriously doubt that is what happened. The best way to leave a project is to empower it so it reflects best on yourself. If you leave it in a worse state that doesn’t make you look any better.
I agree it isn't something that a TP should do. Yet, If you read what Manoah2u said about Abiteboul, he describes those same traits. Abiteboul tends to hold a grudges.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:45 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:14 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:56 pm
It was known that Abiteboul was being moved to a less F1 centric job. My guess is he didn't like where he was being pushed. He tried to negotiate something better. When it became apparent that was NOT gonna happen he quit, to remove himself as the bridge to the new team he was going to be, in an effort to punish Alpine/Renault.
While that might make a nice Netflix episode I seriously doubt that is what happened. The best way to leave a project is to empower it so it reflects best on yourself. If you leave it in a worse state that doesn’t make you look any better.
I agree it isn't something that a TP should do. Yet, If you read what Manoah2u said about Abiteboul, he describes those same traits. Abiteboul tends to hold a grudges.
I agree that he has the traits to act in such manner.

I'll quote K-Mag on Abiteboul
"I prefer things to be, if you are unhappy about something keep it between the person you are unhappy with, which he didn't do.

"He didn't keep it between me and him, he went public with it, and that's his way of doing things
That's also how he went with RedBull, and how he even went initially with Daniel after him announcing his departure.

another quote from Abiteboul himself after recieving critcism on having a 2-time WDC participate in a young driver test:
if Otmar wants to build a claim against the FIA, that would be quite rich, keeping in mind that we know that they have an illegal car.

"We have accepted to settle that one. But if you want to have a go now at the FIA, I would find it quite ironic."
verstappen on abiteboul
“If he would concentrate a little bit more on his own team instead of moaning about me all the time, they would already be world champions

“That man is just frustrated."
Abiteboul clearly has a reputation.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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No worse than what Horner did!

And certainly no worse than Alonso and Honda.
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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:25 pm
No worse than what Horner did!

And certainly no worse than Alonso and Honda.
Horner is very professional with his own team. I agree his dealing with Renault showed poor judgment

With regards to Alonso he did it on a radio during a race, which is slightly different. He didn't think that what he said was going to be on the radio, broadcast to everyone. I don't think he is the first or last driver to be caught out for that. People tend to forgive stuff like that if they win and Abiteboul didn't. Alonso and Horner have won and they both continues to be fast.

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Scorpaguy
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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I certainly do not know Cyril personally...whether such is indicative of vindictiveness or just abject honesty, I cannot say. I do recall a statement made about him that he was always very honest and quick to state such, even when silence would have proven a more judicious.

In today's world, honesty before politics is quite enough to be made redundant.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Alpine F1 Team

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The letting go of Abeitboul is part of a deeper restructuring. Renault has been trying to cut costs and corners the whole way, they essentially took the stay behind and copy route. The end result of copying others was them gaining the insights but not the engineering involved in ironing out the kinks. For one reason or another they've always been behind the others, because copying others is easier than making it yourself. I suppose whatever philosophy was driving the Renault engine program had a let's catch up instead of lead the way as it's probably more cost effective. This is not the philosophy of a winner, that's the philosophy of a midfielder. Hiring Budkowski someone who knew what everyone was doing with their engines screams a we rather copy that innovate.

Recently Renault has changed its philosophy, they want to increase investment in their engines, and to change philosophy requires restructuring. Similar to how McLaren had to restructure in order to change its philosophy.

Red Bull was rightly pissed because their philosophy is push the limits of innovation in every FASTENER, while Renault is a let's be mediocre because we want to save money.
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