2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Spacepace wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:41 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:52 am
Spacepace wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:51 pm


How can the W12 be better on traction when on all rear limited tracks RB16B were stronger and front limited Mercedes were stronger? As far as I see it the W12 is just stronger on braking and stability. RB16B is able to get the rears up to temp much faster too as seen with there slow out laps in qualy. Adrian Newey cars have always had inherently good traction built into them
Barcelona is not front limited, Portimao is not front limited, Hungary is not front limited, Istanbul is not front limited, it's more important to have grip on exit in all those circuits.

Bahrain turn 10, Cota turn 16, 13, 1, and final two corners, all of sector 1, that's front limited, and Verstappen had a clear advantage in all those corners.

Silverstone requires good exit traction to get the lap time because some of the fast bits aren't even corners to F1 cars.

During pre-season testing Hamilton spun the car on entry not exit. When Verstappen spun in 2020 it was in the low speed corners, and that's where the car was having issues.
Barcelona turn 1,3,4,6,7,8,12 are all front limited. COTA is slightly front limited but to say Silverstone and Turkey are rear limited??? Those places eat front tyres

I'm not commenting to change your mind but to not let the forum become skewed.
But in Barcelona it was the rear tires that were going off. You heard Verstappen on the radio saying the rears are done. In fact the new turn 10 was a big reason for the rears going off.
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Gillian
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:51 pm
Spacepace wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:41 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:52 am


Barcelona is not front limited, Portimao is not front limited, Hungary is not front limited, Istanbul is not front limited, it's more important to have grip on exit in all those circuits.

Bahrain turn 10, Cota turn 16, 13, 1, and final two corners, all of sector 1, that's front limited, and Verstappen had a clear advantage in all those corners.

Silverstone requires good exit traction to get the lap time because some of the fast bits aren't even corners to F1 cars.

During pre-season testing Hamilton spun the car on entry not exit. When Verstappen spun in 2020 it was in the low speed corners, and that's where the car was having issues.
Barcelona turn 1,3,4,6,7,8,12 are all front limited. COTA is slightly front limited but to say Silverstone and Turkey are rear limited??? Those places eat front tyres

I'm not commenting to change your mind but to not let the forum become skewed.
But in Barcelona it was the rear tires that were going off. You heard Verstappen on the radio saying the rears are done. In fact the new turn 10 was a big reason for the rears going off.
High rear tire wear does not have to mean rear-limited (or front tire wear/ front-limited). Front limited would often mean understeer and not being able to maximize the grip potential of the rear. A certain ammount of understeer can protect the front tires. Barcelona is for sure a front limited track.

Edit: Something else that also came to mind is if you use the throttle to compensate understeer (which I think Verstappen does, fits his early braking style), which could explain excessive rear tire wear on a front limited track.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Gillian wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:50 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:51 pm
Spacepace wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:41 am


Barcelona turn 1,3,4,6,7,8,12 are all front limited. COTA is slightly front limited but to say Silverstone and Turkey are rear limited??? Those places eat front tyres

I'm not commenting to change your mind but to not let the forum become skewed.
But in Barcelona it was the rear tires that were going off. You heard Verstappen on the radio saying the rears are done. In fact the new turn 10 was a big reason for the rears going off.
High rear tire wear does not have to mean rear-limited (or front tire wear/ front-limited). Front limited would often mean understeer and not being able to maximize the grip potential of the rear. A certain ammount of understeer can protect the front tires. Barcelona is for sure a front limited track.

Edit: Something else that also came to mind is if you use the throttle to compensate understeer (which I think Verstappen does, fits his early braking style), which could explain excessive rear tire wear on a front limited track.
Very simply, turn 10 puts a lot of thermal stress on the tire, the nature of the corner makes it purely rear biased.



It's not a front limited track because you don't get the lap time from plowing into the corners, you get it from traction on exit. That's just the way you have to drive it.



Now turn 10 Bahrain, that my friend, that is a front limited corner.
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ringo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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The car is stronger under braking and traction and has the most downforce. It doesnt need to be over analyzed, it's plain obvious.
Mercedes strength is the engine and tyre degradation. They arent the best under braking and they cannot follow well in dirty air.

What mercedes does well is that once the tyres are working well, they are able to have a gentler drop off in tyre performace which would make them faster when redbull's tyre deg slow it down.
For Sure!!

hasika
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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No one can follow well in dirty air,only when you are much faster you can follow the car in front well,just like Max's first stint with medium tyres.
Mercedes had so strong straight line speed in Turkey,even with a big rear wing.But in Austin there was no much difference between Honda and Mercedes.Mercedes still had higher top speed in the main straight in qualifying ,but there was not much difference in acceleration from 0 to 300kmh(before the wind darg increase dramatically).So RB didnt lose much time in the main straight in Race condition.And we can see the ERS deployment was very different between the two manufacturers.Basically i think there was no much difference in PU performance in Austin.But it also confused me because in Turkey Mercedes was so strong in the straight.

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I want to ask toto if **bold part of quote explains why Hamilton hit Verstappen at Silverstone ? I never thought he is an intelligence man but he goes down very fast in the minus direction.

Wolff expects a Senna-Prost style crash in final race

The Senna-Prost fight is considered one of the hottest battles in Formula 1 history.

The two made contact in 1989 and 1990, at the final race of the season, the Japanese Grand Prix, deciding the fate of the title fight.

Wolff said that the Hamilton-Verstappen duo also entered into a fight in this way and they could have a similar contact in the last race.

"If there's a scenario where they fight for the title in the last race," Wolff told the Daily Mail, "the lead driver will try something like he did when Senna-Prost."

**“What happened in Monza? Verstappen kicked Lewis out of the race. Because Lewis was about to pass him and he was faster. And that's totally understandable.”

“If you're racing for the championship and you lose because the other driver overtakes you, what's the one thing you can do to make sure he doesn't overtake you? We saw this in the Schumacher-Villeneuve and Senna-Prost fight. We even saw it twice between Senna and Prost.”
https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/wolff ... r/6734201/

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:02 pm
I want to ask toto if **bold part of quote explains why Hamilton hit Verstappen at Silverstone ? I never thought he is an intelligence man but he goes down very fast in the minus direction.

Wolff expects a Senna-Prost style crash in final race
.........
**“What happened in Monza? Verstappen kicked Lewis out of the race. Because Lewis was about to pass him and he was faster. And that's totally understandable.”

“If you're racing for the championship and you lose because the other driver overtakes you, what's the one thing you can do to make sure he doesn't overtake you? We saw this in the Schumacher-Villeneuve and Senna-Prost fight. We even saw it twice between Senna and Prost.”
https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/wolff ... r/6734201/

Here is the whole interview where he talks about Max and Horner among other things:

https://www.mailplus.co.uk/edition/spor ... enna-prost

Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:38 am
The car is stronger under braking and traction and has the most downforce. It doesnt need to be over analyzed.
Sure?

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ringo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Yes very sure. That video doesnt do the car justice in race trim. Also.. Max is an early braker and depends on the cornering speed of the car to get through the corners. That video is just highlighting the prowess of the redbull mid corner and exit.
Look on race highlights and look on the braking points and also a good comparison is hamilton vs perez in turkey. Its the brakes on the redbull that allow Perez to defend so well.
I think the traction is not debatable. The redbull has the strongest rear end traditionally and also because of the regulations.
For Sure!!

Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:18 am
Yes very sure. That video doesnt do the car justice in race trim. Also.. Max is an early braker and depends on the cornering speed of the car to get through the corners. That video is just highlighting the prowess of the redbull mid corner and exit.
Look on race highlights and look on the braking points and also a good comparison is hamilton vs perez in turkey. Its the brakes on the redbull that allow Perez to defend so well.
I think the traction is not debatable. The redbull has the strongest rear end traditionally and also because of the regulations.
Maybe Max brakes early because the car can't brake late. Hamilton clearly accellerated better out of the last corner in Turkey as we saw in the race. Everybody can brake late once to defend inside line, easy. Red Bull has always had a better front end than rear end in previous years, they just fixed their weakest point this year by making the gearbox case slimmer. Its very much debatable because its the other way around from what you state.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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A piece from a German interview with Helmut Marko yesterday:

Hier hat Red Bull gegen Mercedes im F1-Titelrennen Vorteile

„Eigentlich sollten uns die beiden nächsten Rennen in Mexiko und Sao Paulo wegen der Höhenlage traditionell mehr liegen als Mercedes", erklärt Marko.
„Aber verlassen wollen wir uns nicht darauf, sondern wie in Austin versuchen, das Beste aus unserem Paket herauszuholen."

„Wenn uns das gelingt, bin ich guter Dinge. Mercedes kann das Auto bei der Abstimmung schneller auf den Punkt bringen.
Unser Auto ist komplizierter, deshalb brauchen wir oft länger dafür.
Wenn Max aber die nächsten beiden Rennen gewinnt, werden wir einen großen Schritt in Titel gemacht haben."

„Ohne die Ausfälle von Baku (Reifenplatzer), Silverstone (Crash mit Hamilton) und Ungarn (Abschuss durch Bottas, jeweils Anm. d. Red.), für die Max nichts konnte,
hätte Max schon 50 Punkte auf dem Konto. Dann wäre der Titelkampf schon jetzt nicht mehr spannend."
"Actually, the next two races in Mexico and Sao Paulo would traditionally suit us more than Mercedes because of the height," explains Marko.
"But we don't want to rely on it, but try, like in Austin, to get the best out of our package."

"If we can do that I'll be in a good mood. Mercedes can get the car to the point faster when it comes to set-up.
Our car is more complicated, so it often takes us longer.

But if Max wins the next two races, we will have taken a big step towards the title."

"Without the failures of Baku (flat tire), Silverstone (crash with Hamilton) and Hungary (shot down by Bottas, assumption from the editor), for which Max could not do anything,
Max would already have 50 points in his account. Then the title fight would no longer be exciting. "


That underlined is therefore a disadvantage in Brazil, where there is another terrible sprint weekend and therefore only one FP to get the setup done. :(

https://www.sport1.de/news/motorsport/formel1/2021/11/formel -1-gesundheitsproblem-von-max-verstappen-helmut-marko-klart- auf

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:52 pm
A piece from a German interview with Helmut Marko yesterday:

Hier hat Red Bull gegen Mercedes im F1-Titelrennen Vorteile

„Eigentlich sollten uns die beiden nächsten Rennen in Mexiko und Sao Paulo wegen der Höhenlage traditionell mehr liegen als Mercedes", erklärt Marko.
„Aber verlassen wollen wir uns nicht darauf, sondern wie in Austin versuchen, das Beste aus unserem Paket herauszuholen."

„Wenn uns das gelingt, bin ich guter Dinge. Mercedes kann das Auto bei der Abstimmung schneller auf den Punkt bringen.
Unser Auto ist komplizierter, deshalb brauchen wir oft länger dafür.
Wenn Max aber die nächsten beiden Rennen gewinnt, werden wir einen großen Schritt in Titel gemacht haben."

„Ohne die Ausfälle von Baku (Reifenplatzer), Silverstone (Crash mit Hamilton) und Ungarn (Abschuss durch Bottas, jeweils Anm. d. Red.), für die Max nichts konnte,
hätte Max schon 50 Punkte auf dem Konto. Dann wäre der Titelkampf schon jetzt nicht mehr spannend."
"Actually, the next two races in Mexico and Sao Paulo would traditionally suit us more than Mercedes because of the height," explains Marko.
"But we don't want to rely on it, but try, like in Austin, to get the best out of our package."

"If we can do that I'll be in a good mood. Mercedes can get the car to the point faster when it comes to set-up.
Our car is more complicated, so it often takes us longer.

But if Max wins the next two races, we will have taken a big step towards the title."

"Without the failures of Baku (flat tire), Silverstone (crash with Hamilton) and Hungary (shot down by Bottas, assumption from the editor), for which Max could not do anything,
Max would already have 50 points in his account. Then the title fight would no longer be exciting. "


That underlined is therefore a disadvantage in Brazil, where there is another terrible sprint weekend and therefore only one FP to get the setup done. :(

https://www.sport1.de/news/motorsport/formel1/2021/11/formel -1-gesundheitsproblem-von-max-verstappen-helmut-marko-klart- auf
sprint races didn't go well for redbull when the race started or proceeded. I hope this time it will be smooth one and finish with a victory.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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There were only 2 sprint races. RB won the first with ease. The second, Monza was never going to be strong for them.

Brazil plays more to the car's strengths than either Silverstone or Monza. That is carrying speed through corners and good turn in.

This isn't to say the RB16B has lousy exit traction, rather it is stronger to use the momentum of the car to get the lap time.

Take turn 6 in Mexico, if you rely on aero to get through the corner. Maybe you sacrifice a little on braking under entry. Brake a little earlier but more gently, to keep the nose down longer on entry so the front end traces a tighter line through the second apex.

Now your steering is practically straight on exit giving you excellent exit traction.

Vs a car with more exit traction but less downforce, then you'd brake as deep as possible into the corner nail the apex, then get on the power as soon as possible. With superior exit traction you can make the exit despite having a bit more steering lock. The other way forces you to straighten the car earlier on corner exit to have similar exit traction.

The mini sectors through turns 4 - 11 will tell you everything you need to know about who will be fast.
Saishū kōnā

BlueCheetah66
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:06 pm
ringo wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:38 am
The car is stronger under braking and traction and has the most downforce. It doesnt need to be over analyzed.
Sure?
Videos like this are never useful when judging which care is better in a braking zone. It will always look as though the trailing car is gaining because its going to get closer. The only real way to compare braking is through telemetry

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:39 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:06 pm
ringo wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 4:38 am
The car is stronger under braking and traction and has the most downforce. It doesnt need to be over analyzed.
Sure?
Videos like this are never useful when judging which care is better in a braking zone. It will always look as though the trailing car is gaining because its going to get closer. The only real way to compare braking is through telemetry
Can you show me this telemetry?