2021 Mclaren F1 Team

[diffuser]

I think that the racing pace of Lando is somewhat compromised by the start and the need to protect the tires in the second segment.
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Not sure how you offset the benifit in the early laps of having a FASTER tire by it not lasting as long. You're suggesting they made a mistake with soft tire. You can't have your cake an eat it too.

[Emag]

I think that the racing pace of Lando is somewhat compromised by the start and the need to protect the tires in the second segment.
https://f1bythenumbers.com/wp-content/u ... top_10.svg

Not sure how you offset the benifit in the early laps of having a FASTER tire by it not lasting as long. You're suggesting they made a mistake with soft tire. You can't have your cake an eat it too.

You offset the benefit because you can't use that tire advantage unless you want to have another pit stop later on.

I can guarantee you that Lando would have pulled out in front of Leclerc if he used that tire to its full advantage, but if he did that he would have to pit after 20 laps.

[diffuser]

I think that the racing pace of Lando is somewhat compromised by the start and the need to protect the tires in the second segment.
https://f1bythenumbers.com/wp-content/u ... top_10.svg

Not sure how you offset the benifit in the early laps of having a FASTER tire by it not lasting as long. You're suggesting they made a mistake with soft tire. You can't have your cake an eat it too.

You offset the benefit because you can't use that tire advantage unless you want to have another pit stop later on.

I can guarantee you that Lando would have pulled out in front of Leclerc if he used that tire to its full advantage, but if he did that he would have to pit after 20 laps.

Think you want to rewrite what you wrote, I don't think it is saying what you want it to say...

Lando did pass LeClerc. He stayed for about 5 or 6 laps behind LeClerc. Atleast I'm not understanding what you're trying to write.

Lando's biggest problem was something he did alot of last year. He went backwards at the beginning of the race(From 7th to 9th) and then got stuck behind the Gasly train for about 9 laps.

[Emag]

Think you want to rewrite what you wrote, I don't think it is saying what you want it to say...

Lando did pass LeClerc. He stayed for about 5 or 6 laps behind LeClerc. Atleast I'm not understanding what you're trying to write.

Lando's biggest problem was something he did alot of last year. He went backwards at the beginning of the race(From 7th to 9th) and then got stuck behind the Gasly train for about 9 laps.

You are the one who is going on about a whole another topic. Your initial statement was that you didn't agree with the previous comment which said that Lando's pace in the end was compromised from having to save tires.

And I gave you a response to tell you that it did, because although the tire was faster (it was not even that much faster to the medium in the first place because the tire they put on Lando was slightly used anyway), he couldn't use it to its full potential without having to make another stop before the end of the race.

To clarify what I meant with him pulling out in front of Leclerc. I meant that he would have pulled a gap in front of Leclerc if he used the tires.

As for your other extra comments that you made (which were completely unrelated to your previous comment that I replied), he fell backwards at the beginning of the race because he aquaplaned and almost hit Daniel because of it. He had to hit the brakes, that's why he fell back. Other than that, his initial getaway was better than Daniel's.

And he wasn't stuck behind the Gasly train for 9 laps (5 or 6 of those laps were behind a Safety Car).

[Macklaren]

Lando's biggest problem was something he did alot of last year. He went backwards at the beginning of the race(From 7th to 9th) and then got stuck behind the Gasly train for about 9 laps.

True but Lando was the only driver in the top-5 finishers to have not have a big actual / nearly off-track moment that could have lost him everything (see Perez, who had 2). Given the extremely tricky conditions, being conservative in the first few laps may have actually been a good strategy (getting hit by Stroll didn't help). He then passed several cars in one go behind the Gasly train to pull up behind Daniel very quickly.

Dropping places at the start was a problem for Lando in 2019 but he got MUCH better with that last year and even in Bahrain a few weeks ago.

[Ground Effect]

Not sure how you offset the benifit in the early laps of having a FASTER tire by it not lasting as long. You're suggesting they made a mistake with soft tire. You can't have your cake an eat it too.

You offset the benefit because you can't use that tire advantage unless you want to have another pit stop later on.

I can guarantee you that Lando would have pulled out in front of Leclerc if he used that tire to its full advantage, but if he did that he would have to pit after 20 laps.

Think you want to rewrite what you wrote, I don't think it is saying what you want it to say...

Lando did pass LeClerc. He stayed for about 5 or 6 laps behind LeClerc. Atleast I'm not understanding what you're trying to write.

Lando's biggest problem was something he did alot of last year. He went backwards at the beginning of the race(From 7th to 9th) and then got stuck behind the Gasly train for about 9 laps.

Not sure what you mean by Lando stayed behind LeClerc for about 5 or 6 laps, because the race I was following, he passed him early on after the red flag restart. I don’t know if you regard following under safety car as staying behind, which was the same for him being behind Gasly, most of it was under safety car conditions. He overtook shortly after the race went green.

[mwillems]

Passing at Imola was extremely difficult as proven by both Lando with Leclerc (who was on the DRS for almost the entirety of the time after the restart), as well as by Daniel, who even when he was behind Lando’s pace all race, managed to keep Stroll (also on DRS for most of the end of the GP) behind.

The team has better data than either of us and this time around, their gamble paid off... There was no assurance that Lando would have been able to make the move on Leclerc on Mediums and following Leclerc would have hampered performance regardless... Therefore starting on Mediums could have easily meant finishing P4 regardless (assuming Hamilton would have passed both Lando and Leclerc)... The opportunity was at the start, where been able to have tires on the best operating temperature (at a very cold track) would give an advantage... Gaining track position early is what gave Mclaren a podium... Leclerc was faster than Lando and had a tire advantage towards the end, but he just couldn’t complete the move.

Regarding Max going full beans... I don’t know, but what I can tell is that at that point in the race, Hamilton was also closing the gap to him, so I don’t think he was just cruising knowing his lead was shrinking... The reality is that even when the front runners are cruising, most often than not they still have a huge delta to the cars in the midfield, in this case, Lando’s times were close to Max’s that is very impressive indeed.

Also... There was no reason for Lando to “attack” and degrade his tires more than necessary after the restart, he had one job and that was to keep Leclerc behind... It wasn’t as if he could have overtaken Max at the front... So that 0.8 second a lap that Max pulled on Lando was more due to his strategy to defend than pace on the car.


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I'm not questioning the strategy at all so I'm not really going to go down that route.

But I don't understand how a comment can be made that Lando wasn't attacking and ignore the fact that he was pushing to defend, from the Ferraris and then from Hamilton, so he was pushing for quite some time to try to stay ahead, so for large parts he wasn't conserving his tyres, he was racing hard.

And despite this Max did pull ahead considerably and whilst he wasn't cruising, I suspect he had more in the tank.

He was pushing on the fraction of the lap that he needed to push and taking care of the tires on the rest of the lap... He was pushing the tires at the end of the lap in order to get a good exit towards the main straight... He was pretty consistent in S2 during almost 30 laps at 27.2 (with just 1 tenth variance during that stint)... He was losing most of his time to Verstappen in S2 (at a rate of bit more than half a second a lap).

In S2 (which is the most punishing one for the tires) he wasn’t pushing, he didn’t need to since there was no possibility for Leclerc to make a pass on the sector and he (Leclerc) couldn’t get much closer to the downforce loss by been so close to Lando... He will just push his tires by the end of S3 (not even in the first portion of S3)... As a reference, Daniel (who clearly was behind in Pace to Lando was matching his S2 times in the last stint (and actually Stroll was faster than Lando during that sector).

Lando would be conserving not only tires, but also battery / deployment for the main straight (which is a suboptimal deployment strategy probably).

That’s at least what I can see from the data... He needed to make the Soft tires which were supposed to last 20 laps to make it to 30 laps, the only way to do so was managing his pace, so no, he wasn’t “attacking”.


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He
HE was managing the tyres, yes, I'm not saying he wasnt. Nor that it was the wrong strategy, it wasn't. My assertion is that the near second a lap defecit is unfortunately not far from the truth.

You can look for all the reasons to say why Lando could have been faster. To be honest I even heard rumours he wasnt wearing his lucky underpants too.

But that all assumes Max was pushing full speed ahead and the only thing that could have happened is Lando got faster and Max could not.

I highly doubt that. I highly doubt that any time Lando might have found, that Max couldn't.

Net result, the gap sat nearly a second a lap slower.

But we can agree to disagree, I prefer to not get carried away with our good form and keep my feet on the ground. I think the next few races will show us how far we are from Red Bull.

[SmallSoldier]

I'm not questioning the strategy at all so I'm not really going to go down that route.

But I don't understand how a comment can be made that Lando wasn't attacking and ignore the fact that he was pushing to defend, from the Ferraris and then from Hamilton, so he was pushing for quite some time to try to stay ahead, so for large parts he wasn't conserving his tyres, he was racing hard.

And despite this Max did pull ahead considerably and whilst he wasn't cruising, I suspect he had more in the tank.

He was pushing on the fraction of the lap that he needed to push and taking care of the tires on the rest of the lap... He was pushing the tires at the end of the lap in order to get a good exit towards the main straight... He was pretty consistent in S2 during almost 30 laps at 27.2 (with just 1 tenth variance during that stint)... He was losing most of his time to Verstappen in S2 (at a rate of bit more than half a second a lap).

In S2 (which is the most punishing one for the tires) he wasn’t pushing, he didn’t need to since there was no possibility for Leclerc to make a pass on the sector and he (Leclerc) couldn’t get much closer to the downforce loss by been so close to Lando... He will just push his tires by the end of S3 (not even in the first portion of S3)... As a reference, Daniel (who clearly was behind in Pace to Lando was matching his S2 times in the last stint (and actually Stroll was faster than Lando during that sector).

Lando would be conserving not only tires, but also battery / deployment for the main straight (which is a suboptimal deployment strategy probably).

That’s at least what I can see from the data... He needed to make the Soft tires which were supposed to last 20 laps to make it to 30 laps, the only way to do so was managing his pace, so no, he wasn’t “attacking”.


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He was managing the tyres, yes, I'm not saying he wasnt. Would he have been able to go quicker over 30 laps on a set of mediums?

I don't think by much.

It was the right strategy to go softs, because it got crucial track position. But could they have gone on mediums and done 30 laps quicker? I think that near second a lap would have been maintained. And crucially, I suspect max had plenty in the tank if he wanted it. Could we have put on some yellows and gone on average 4 tenths a lap faster, pushing, with nothing but clear track in front or behind like max? Yes, possibly we could, but

1) we aren't fast or lucky enough to be able to put ourselves in that situation
2) I'm fairly certain Max could have found that time easily too.

Net result, we are nearly a second a lap down.

But we can agree to disagree, I prefer to not get carried away with our good form and keep my feet on the ground. I think the next few races will show us how far we are from Red Bull.

You are right, I don’t think we will agree

I was just looking at the data and basing the analysis on it... Just one more point, today during Mercedes GP Debrief, they mentioned that the Medium tire was actually faster than the Soft tire since not only you could push it harder for longer, but because of track temperature they weren’t overheated... I will stand by the argument that from an stint perspective, Lando would have been faster with the Medium tire compared to the Soft, the question was if we would have been able to make the overtake on Leclerc on the Medium tire considering how hard it is to stick the move at Imola.

Regarding Max cruising, I’m sure at some point he was, nevertheless it is also true that he kept banging fastest laps until Hamilton pulled the fastest lap (at which point there was probably too much risk to attempt one).

In regards to been as fast as RBR or Mercedes, the car isn’t there yet... And I don’t think an argument has been made that it is the case... I don’t think there was a second lap difference between the cars, but if it is 3 tenths or 1 second, there is still a gap to cover in order to be able to fight those two.


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[mwillems]

Hurdy gurdy gurdy hurdy


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Hurdy gurdy gurdy?!

Grrrr!

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Sorry, my generic Scandinavian is faltering so I will revert back to my native language.

You were focussing on Lando's data I think until just now, looking for reasons he could have gone faster, certainly that is how it appears, but that is only half the story of the difference between two cars. You can't have a discussion about two cars and treat one like the hare on rails at the greyhound racing. I'm just repeating myself again but I highly doubt that any time Lando could have found, Max could not have found either.

But we can agree that there is some distance to go between us and the front, I just happen to think on this track in race conditions it is circa 8 tenths.

Please don't explain that the mechanical hare is variable speed as I'm working on the principal that it goes the same speed round the track lol

Hurdy gurdy Hrrrrrrr!

[diffuser]

Think you want to rewrite what you wrote, I don't think it is saying what you want it to say...

Lando did pass LeClerc. He stayed for about 5 or 6 laps behind LeClerc. Atleast I'm not understanding what you're trying to write.

Lando's biggest problem was something he did alot of last year. He went backwards at the beginning of the race(From 7th to 9th) and then got stuck behind the Gasly train for about 9 laps.

You are the one who is going on about a whole another topic. Your initial statement was that you didn't agree with the previous comment which said that Lando's pace in the end was compromised from having to save tires.

And I gave you a response to tell you that it did, because although the tire was faster (it was not even that much faster to the medium in the first place because the tire they put on Lando was slightly used anyway), he couldn't use it to its full potential without having to make another stop before the end of the race.

To clarify what I meant with him pulling out in front of Leclerc. I meant that he would have pulled a gap in front of Leclerc if he used the tires.

As for your other extra comments that you made (which were completely unrelated to your previous comment that I replied), he fell backwards at the beginning of the race because he aquaplaned and almost hit Daniel because of it. He had to hit the brakes, that's why he fell back. Other than that, his initial getaway was better than Daniel's.

And he wasn't stuck behind the Gasly train for 9 laps (5 or 6 of those laps were behind a Safety Car).

Everybody's pace is compromised to save tires in almost every lap of every race and/or quali. That's the game. They chose the soft tire with the expectation of a bigger pace drop off than the medium but more pace up front. They used the soft to insure they got past LeClerc. My point was, that is the characteric of the soft vs the medium tire. You can't dial in the soft tire pace with medium tire life in the soft tire.

[McG]

What an absolutely pointless discussion.

[Sharnlarry]

Think you want to rewrite what you wrote, I don't think it is saying what you want it to say...

Lando did pass LeClerc. He stayed for about 5 or 6 laps behind LeClerc. Atleast I'm not understanding what you're trying to write.

Lando's biggest problem was something he did alot of last year. He went backwards at the beginning of the race(From 7th to 9th) and then got stuck behind the Gasly train for about 9 laps.

You are the one who is going on about a whole another topic. Your initial statement was that you didn't agree with the previous comment which said that Lando's pace in the end was compromised from having to save tires.

And I gave you a response to tell you that it did, because although the tire was faster (it was not even that much faster to the medium in the first place because the tire they put on Lando was slightly used anyway), he couldn't use it to its full potential without having to make another stop before the end of the race.

To clarify what I meant with him pulling out in front of Leclerc. I meant that he would have pulled a gap in front of Leclerc if he used the tires.

As for your other extra comments that you made (which were completely unrelated to your previous comment that I replied), he fell backwards at the beginning of the race because he aquaplaned and almost hit Daniel because of it. He had to hit the brakes, that's why he fell back. Other than that, his initial getaway was better than Daniel's.

And he wasn't stuck behind the Gasly train for 9 laps (5 or 6 of those laps were behind a Safety Car).

Everybody's pace is compromised to save tires in almost every lap of every race and/or quali. That's the game. They chose the soft tire with the expectation of a bigger pace drop off than the medium but more pace up front. They used the soft to insure they got past LeClerc. My point was, that is the characteric of the soft vs the medium tire. You can't dial in the soft tire pace with medium tire life in the soft tire.

My understanding was that they chose the soft tyre for start line performance. Had it been a standing start, the track was still damp, so they would have gained some positions but it was a rolling start. Ultimately the teams weren’t told if it was a rolling start or a standing start until they were on track.

[Juzh]

Norris was way ahead of Leclerc on the restart even before braking zone because ferrari PU simply has less power than Mercedes and because leclerc completely missed the restart and imo deserved to be overtaken. He didn't need soft tyres at all to make that move stick. Only on standing start would softs come into play, but that didn't happen. I think teams didn't even know which one it'll be until mid way to the grid?

[mwillems]

What an absolutely pointless discussion.

I don't think the discussion of how much have we bridged the gap to Red Bull is pointless and Tyres, strategy and how strategy is forced upon you by the foibles/speed of the car are intrinsic to that. That's why it is not pointless that if our car had a little more speed, that we could have passed the Ferrari on mediums and had an entirely different race, fending off Hamilton and finishing P2. Even a couple of tenths could have been enough to make mediums viable.

Some think we are close to RB in that race, and if it is true, it's a huge think and definitely worth discussing.

Personally I'm of the camp that we are just letting some good performances go to our heads and we are looking to shape some facts around a not unrealistic conclusion that we would like, and I think that is fairly common in this forum.

[Scorpia]

Norris was way ahead of Leclerc on the restart even before braking zone because ferrari PU simply has less power than Mercedes and because leclerc completely missed the restart and imo deserved to be overtaken. He didn't need soft tyres at all to make that move stick. Only on standing start would softs come into play, but that didn't happen. I think teams didn't even know which one it'll be until mid way to the grid?

I’m no expert and didn’t see the actual overtake. But maybe a reason why leclerc missed the restart compared to Norris was because Norris could go full throttle faster because of his tire advantage? Just a tiny tenth or two could make a difference.
Just a thought! Anyways good race and it’s starting to feel good being a McLaren supporter again!