2021 Mclaren F1 Team

[FittingMechanics]

This. Not sure why people are expecting so much this season. You guys should know that the relative improvement from 2019 to 2020 was about 0.2% (compared to Mercedes), so McLaren didn't really make that huge of a step last year towards Mercedes. But McLaren (and pretty much every other midfield team) were somewhat flattered last year because of Ferrari's struggles and Albon's inability to drive the RedBull to its potential.

Using 0.2% as an example is misleading. The average gap between Mercedes and the midfield was around 1% mark. If McLaren last year managed to reduce this gap by 20% and can maintain the same momentum for 2021, they are getting into 0.5% deficit mark. Area where Red Bull and Ferrari were known to operate. Depending on the track and conditions, it's close to fighting for podiums.

I am not confident this will happen, but if McLaren can maintain small gradual positive changes each year, they will get there. If they can make a bigger leap that could happen sooner than later. We'll see if Mercedes PU can bring that leap.

[Tizz]

I think Red Bull need to be at their best otherwise McLaren will happily take over their spot in the order. They showed a nice and steady improvement since Seidl came in and I really like the driver line-up. Let's wait and see...

I’m pretty sure the gap to Red Bull is too big to trouble them this season, because if you’re racing Red Bull, you’re effectively racing Mercedes and nobody is expecting that. It’ll likely be an almighty scrap for P3. McLaren, Aston, Ferrari, Alpine and maybe Alpha Tauri.

This. Not sure why people are expecting so much this season. You guys should know that the relative improvement from 2019 to 2020 was about 0.2% (compared to Mercedes), so McLaren didn't really make that huge of a step last year towards Mercedes. But McLaren (and pretty much every other midfield team) were somewhat flattered last year because of Ferrari's struggles and Albon's inability to drive the RedBull to its potential.

If we go on with the 2019-2020 improvement as a reference you shouldn't really expect a massive step forward at all this year. With relatively stable regulations on the other hand, it is pretty much a given that it is highly likely that the grid will remain somewhat static this year (apart from Ferrari, who might jump a couple of places because they problems last year were in part due to the underpowered engine, and that's fixed this year).

So depending on how much Ferrari was able to claw back in terms of chassis performance (because they should be there or thereabouts with the engine), McLaren is looking to battle for 3rd / 4th this year. Aston Martin and Alpine probably in that group as well, so it is definitely not going to be easy to get 3rd / 4th again.

If people want to expect wins / frequent podiums then keep your hopes up for 2022, because that's the best chance any other team is going to get. It's a matter of who get's the new regulations right. (And even then, Ferrari, Mercedes and RedBull are expected to be towards the front of the grid)

I don't think that is the complete picture. First of all, I compared with Red Bull, not Mercedes. Second, points are awarded for positions, not for time. Third, I did not write anything about wins or podiums. I simply stated that Red Bull cannot afford to be sloppy. McLaren has been climbing from 6th to 4th and 3rd in the constructors championship collecting 62, 145 and 202 points in the last 3 seasons. A similar step would bring them around 260 -270 points. And the speed is there. They were within 2-3 tenths in a number of qualifications. They get the new engine but more important, they have sorted out the organisation. That is a point where RB fails year after year. Everything is in the hands of Newey and the cars have become far too complex for one person to direct it all. Every year they claim they are on top of everything, the best car ever, promising numbers and so on and every year the first couple of races is a nightmare. Besides that, the reliability of the Honda engine was far from acceptable. And now they will operate with a PU where they cut out a year of additional development and testing. In a year where Ferrari is no longer top 3, Red Bull was not able to collect more than 319 points, 100 points less than the year before. You cannot just blame Albon for that, before that Gasly couldn't make it work either. So once again, let's wait and see...

[Manoah2u]

It does matter, actually. It was claimed that just by being or having Daniel, Mclaren is one-upping the rest, or it would worry a team like RBR. Now if RBR were to have a bunch of rookies, or two times Albon aboard, then i could see where that's coming from. However, the 'driver card' as issued by djos (and i get why) really is irrelevant if you compare the stats to the competition.
I'd for example argue that if Mclaren were actually to have both Hamilton and Verstappen aboard, and RedBull would have to suffice with Perez and Albon, YES, then RBR might start to worry a bit.

As for the testing period till race 1: i don't believe for a second RBR has showed their full hand, and quite frankly, neither does Mclaren. They will have a bunch of stuff around that they'll test and what comes out on top is what will be used. The claim that as little will be invested for 2021 obviously has merit and makes sense, but at the same time the most investments being made for this season will be right now still for the best start possible. Hence i am convinced that between now (reveals) and race 1, there will be quite some change to the wings and floors.

Simply put, they have all the sim data available, the teams now will go through filming days giving them real-life data, which will be compared to the sim data, then in testing the teams will slap on a bunch of parts to test and see the real-life effects, and again, compare them to sim data, and then will use the best of what they measured to use as a 'final' product, which will be fine-tuned and fine-built with perhaps minimal adaptations at 'home' and then when friday practice comes, they'll use that. This will not just be limited to the front wing end plates or bargeboards, but will most certainly be applied to the front wing, the bargeboards, the floors, the rearwing and a variety of bodywork as long as it won't cost them tokens.

Thus, there will certainly be a change.
Teams like Williams, AlfaRomeo, Haas might not by that much, even though in the case of either Haas or Alfa, they could be mules for Ferrari, so who knows.

[adrianjordan]

Biggest fact: RedBull's latest win was: Last race in 2020, Max Verstappen. Mclaren's last win was: 2012.
Since then they haven't had a win, and even then in 2012 they were beaten by RedBull.
They've been on the back foot ever since 2009.

Not sure I'd agree with the 2009 claim. They were in the run for the WDC in 2010 and 2012, in fact in 2012 they ended the season with the fastest car, only to blow it with a new concept in 2013.

I'd say 2013 was really when the decline took hold.

[Tizz]

Mclaren has a new PU, which they had hard work in fitting - seemingly succesfull though - but is a new variable and will bring some issues, inevitably. For all we know they're going to start pre-season testing and run into insolvable overheating problems.

As you said, let's not get ahead of the facts...

Mclaren's new PU is a Mercedes engine which Aston Martin also have. Or Racing point last year. Did RP beat RBR just because they had a Merc? how about Williams?

The argument being made was that the Mercedes engine is both in absolute and relative terms faster than the engine they had last year. How is Racing Point or Williams relevant in this reasoning ?

[Manoah2u]

Biggest fact: RedBull's latest win was: Last race in 2020, Max Verstappen. Mclaren's last win was: 2012.
Since then they haven't had a win, and even then in 2012 they were beaten by RedBull.
They've been on the back foot ever since 2009.

Not sure I'd agree with the 2009 claim. They were in the run for the WDC in 2010 and 2012, in fact in 2012 they ended the season with the fastest car, only to blow it with a new concept in 2013.

I'd say 2013 was really when the decline took hold.

You don't agree

First off, it's a 100% fact Mclaren's last win is 2012. Last RedBull win was the last GP of 2020.
how can you argue with that

As for 2009 - Mclaren simply wasn't nowhere near either BrawnGP's level or RedBull's level.
They were 82.5 points behind Redbull, and 101 points behind BrawnGP.
Hamilton had a few podiums in the later half of the season, paired to a lot of DNF's too,
colliding with Massa more than once. More undeniable facts.

They were more competitive in 2010, but performancewise they were a good deal behind RedBull,
just like everybody's in the backfoot compared to Mercedes ever since 2014.
They were 40 points behind RBR in the WCC, and Hamilton finished 4th, even behind Alonso & Webber.
The only 'huge' improvement Mclaren had in 2010 was ditching Kovalainen for Jenson.

2011 saw a much stronger Button but still finishing 122 points behind Seb, Hamilton almost 170 points,
with a full 153 points in the WCC behind RBR.

2012 saw them almost 90 points behind RBR and they got beaten by Ferrari, both in the WCC as the WDC.

There's a reason why Hamilton was done with Mclaren and went to Mercedes.

I'd say that Mclaren ever was 'in the run' for the WDC as much as Ferrari has been 'in the run' in 2017/2018.
In other words, not really.

Mclaren clearly is progressing, and i am very happy that they did not end up like Williams.
There's still a lot of work for Mclaren to be able to fight for the World Championship again,
and having a Mercedes engine does not make it into the holy grail of fixing. Both Williams and Racing Point have proven that. Hell, Racing Point drove in 2020 essentially with the 2019 Mercedes, and the 2020 Mercedes engine,
but still weren't even close to fight for the WC, nor even make RedBull worried.

The only competitors 'worried' about Mclaren are Aston Martin, Alpine and Ferrari.
Mclaren will be fighting for 3rd in the WCC standings against the latter three.
1 and 2 in the WCC will be between Mercedes and RedBull.

2021 will likely be a far more stable season compared to the absolute bonkers season that was 2020.

[Manoah2u]

Mclaren has a new PU, which they had hard work in fitting - seemingly succesfull though - but is a new variable and will bring some issues, inevitably. For all we know they're going to start pre-season testing and run into insolvable overheating problems.

As you said, let's not get ahead of the facts...

Mclaren's new PU is a Mercedes engine which Aston Martin also have. Or Racing point last year. Did RP beat RBR just because they had a Merc? how about Williams?

The argument being made was that the Mercedes engine is both in absolute and relative terms faster than the engine they had last year. How is Racing Point or Williams relevant in this reasoning ?

They both are running Mercedes engines
Neither RP nor Williams is challenging RedBull.

[Tizz]

They both are running Mercedes engines
Neither RP nor Williams is challenging RedBull.

Yes, I know, you are repeating yourself but you still can't explain why that matters.

[Manoah2u]

They both are running Mercedes engines
Neither RP nor Williams is challenging RedBull.

Yes, I know, you are repeating yourself but you still can't explain why that matters.

i just did, literally, in the second sentance

[FittingMechanics]

They both are running Mercedes engines
Neither RP nor Williams is challenging RedBull.

Yes, I know, you are repeating yourself but you still can't explain why that matters.

i just did, literally, in the second sentance

Mercedes engine does not mean automatic challenge of Red Bull. No one is saying that.

But if McLaren was able to be 4th fastest car last year, with an engine that is slower (let's speculate 0.2s per lap), it is not crazy to think that they will improve compared to Aston Martin and Red Bull. If all things are the same. Obviously due to some regulation changes and unknowns it is hard to tell, but McLaren had an engine upgrade, it should bring them forward.

[bauc]

Yes, I know, you are repeating yourself but you still can't explain why that matters.

i just did, literally, in the second sentance

Mercedes engine does not mean automatic challenge of Red Bull. No one is saying that.

But if McLaren was able to be 4th fastest car last year, with an engine that is slower (let's speculate 0.2s per lap), it is not crazy to think that they will improve compared to Aston Martin and Red Bull. If all things are the same. Obviously due to some regulation changes and unknowns it is hard to tell, but McLaren had an engine upgrade, it should bring them forward.

A engine upgrade for a chassis not build for it, so overall where you get some you loose some ....

[Macklaren]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/56272450

And so the longest running rumor in F1 resurfaces! But apparently more "real" this time and Benson is a credible source. The eFuel angle is interesting too as it checks both the ICE powertrain + EV/clean energy boxes. I'm also really surprised that McLaren is in the mix due to the Seidl connection. If RBR snags this, then McL will really have to figure out its engine plans -- it is interesting that McLaren's road car division is one of the most vocal proponent of eFuels right now.

[Manoah2u]

I did, this week or last week, read something about Porsche having discovered some sort of 'magic' synthetic 'superfuel' which they say or is claimed to extend the life of combustion engines, where the fuel makes the car on par with the CO2 output of electric cars, including it's production and energy production.

Meanwhile, Alpine as a 'sporting luxury brand' of Renault is in F1, Aston Martin has 'returned' to F1, Ferrari is in F1, and Mclaren are in F1, aswell as Alfa Romeo, and there are rumours about Maserati perhaps either taking over from Alfa Romeo in F1, partnering with Haas, or stepping into Formula E.

This essentially leaves Porsche a bit in 'the cold' if you may, and since F1 is concidering stepping over to completely synthetic fuels this only makes it sensible for Porsche to enter F1 to 'fight' the competitors in F1 level sports, or atleast be able to compete with them.

With that being Porsche themselves is another story alltogether but very much possible.
I personally don't really think Bugatti's focus group is of anything to be influenced by F1 stats or exposure. Lamborghini however could be interesting, but even then i don't see them definately benefitting from F1.

I don't believe Mclaren is going to team up with Porsche though.
Will RedBull? Perhaps, it would essentially give Porsche two teams to work with from the get-go, a clear benefit.
Williams offcourse is another interesting outfit to work with, but it would leave porsche to start from scratch essentially.

With F1 going towards Synth fuels becoming more of a 'marketing' tool, could have some interesting results though.

Gulf is currently partnered with Mclaren. I'd love to see Gulf become a fully fledged 'synth' sponsor and see that classic GULF livery on the Mclaren.

Gulf Mclaren?
BP Aston Martin?
Shell Ferrari?
ELF Alpine?

[FittingMechanics]

Gulf is apparently a small company now.

I doubt Porsche will enter. Red Bull will try to lure them in, but they will request significant concessions from current engine manufacturers and I doubt they will receive them. Porsche is selling a boatload of cars despite having no F1 team. It wasn't an issue for the last 20 years, it won't be in the future.

[Zynerji]

I don't expect Honda to actually leave at the end of 2021. If RBR starts winning lots, the Honda board will use this same eFuel change angle to "re-assess their previous decision" and end up staying after this year.