2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:14 pm
How about if we agree that Norris has taken it to another level this year and really delivered for the team, whereas Daniel has struggled but still shown glimpses of brilliance?
Agreed.

You could add... Sainz has also taken it to another level at Ferrari. Had Sainz stayed, all things being equal, McLaren would be in 3ird right now.

mwillems
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:52 pm
mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:14 pm
How about if we agree that Norris has taken it to another level this year and really delivered for the team, whereas Daniel has struggled but still shown glimpses of brilliance?
Agreed.

You could add... Sainz has also taken it to another level at Ferrari. Had Sainz stayed, all things being equal, McLaren would be in 3ird right now.
<spits on hand to shake>Change "would" to "could" and we're on the money </spitsonhand>
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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djos
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:52 pm
mwillems wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:14 pm
How about if we agree that Norris has taken it to another level this year and really delivered for the team, whereas Daniel has struggled but still shown glimpses of brilliance?
Agreed.

You could add... Sainz has also taken it to another level at Ferrari. Had Sainz stayed, all things being equal, McLaren would be in 3ird right now.
I think Sainz has been able to adapt to the Ferrari and frequently get more out of it, because he has gotten used to a tricky car.

The same thing happened when Daniel went from TR to RBR, he was able to smash Vettel with it who really struggled without his blown diffuser.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Mclarensenna
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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PhillipM wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:59 pm
Ground Effect wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:26 pm

To be fair, Daniel also said he could go quicker, with your team mate behind you, why push? Of course Lando could have raced him, but it’s unlikely he’d have gotten past, highly unlikely.
Oh of course, but handing Daniel some sort of pass for being better than Norris in the second half of the season on the back of one win that they didn't race each other for because they didn't want to lose the 1-2 as per another teams collision on the same day, is rather a stretch, when you consider they deliberately settled for not racing each other that day. Given that gave him the extra points for the 'points' arguement and Norris literally just got screwed by a puncture after being well ahead of Daniel this weekend again.

That Dan never radio'd back for help or to ask Norris to stay behind, is neither here nor there, why would he, it'd be the worlds weirdest request and he'd be ridiculed for it.

It's easy enough to remove that race as an outlier because you know they held station and then look at the respective performance in the second half of the season and see there's not a whole lot of change. Daniel definately got a lot more comfortable with the car but that's a far stretch from him being better than Norris in the second half.
Phillip thank you for replying to my post it is appreciated and glad we both learn't something from each other. I am happy to answer your other questions and points you just made :)

“Oh of course, but handing Daniel some sort of pass for being better than Norris in the second half of the season on the back of one win that they didn't race each other for because they didn't want to lose the 1-2 as per another teams collision on the same day,” <-------

1. The restart is usually the best opportunity to overtake the car ahead. Lando was racing at the restart for at least 5 laps and tried but could not get through. So that statement is false saying they didn’t race each other as they clearly did for for at least 5 laps.

2. I never handed Daniel any pass for the 2nd half of the season. The facts are clear Ric has 55 points to Landos 40 and a race win. Ric is ahead in points with Mclarens only win in a decade. It’s a fact. Both I personally think have done very well in the second half of the season.

“when you consider they deliberately settled for not racing each other that day.” <----------------------------

Lando is the 1 who suggested not to race each other after he was racing and out of DRS.
Deliberately settling would in my books be, under the safety car (before the restart) if Mclaren said on the radio Lando do not race Dan at all on the restart, just bring the cars home 1,2 we do not want to take any chances. But Mclaren did the right thing and let them race at the restart and for at least 5 laps till which point Lando out of DRS range after asking Ric’s help to speed up as Perez was in DRS then suggested himself to not race each other. Lando suggested this 1st. Not Mclaren. This point is extremely important to understand as they did race and were racing.

“Norris literally just got screwed by a puncture after being well ahead of Daniel this weekend again.” <--------------------------------------- Daniel also got screwed the last 2 race weekends in a row with engine issue and fuel warning issue. That’s F1 racing it happens.

“That Dan never radio'd back for help or to ask Norris to stay behind, is neither here nor there, why would he, it'd be the worlds weirdest request and he'd be ridiculed for it.” <-------------------------------------------

The fact remains Norris team radio’d help from Daniel to help with Perez in DRS which Dan complied. It is very important as Dan helped Norris from the Perez threat. And before you say he was not a threat sitting at home watching on your couch I will take the word over Lando on this as he would not have himself made this radio request to Dan to speed up if he himself did not somehow deem it a threat of some sort even if small. Norris got overtaken by Hamilton earlier so he was clearly worried. he made the request to Ric and then Ric helped him by speeding up. Fantastic team work and thumbs up from me for both being mature and quick thinking to secure the 1,2

“It's easy enough to remove that race as an outlier because you know they held station” < -------------------

Oh no not again with this. Hahahahahahah. Ok let me add some spice to the forum as people will be getting bored to death with this by now im assuming. Yep I will ring up the FIA right now and request they remove that win and say it was not fair Ric lead the race from start to finish as after Lando raced him at the restart for 5 laps and could not pass, Lando himself suggested to the team to hold station to which they agreed. This clearly goes against all FIA rules.

I guess if Max is behind of Lewis at the next race all he has to do after trying to overtake for 5 laps and can not get through is then get on the radio and say is it best if i just hold station. Then after the race the FIA will black flag Lewis and give Max the championship :D :lol: :lol:

PhillipM
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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I don't need to argue what went on at the race and why the team didn't radio etc - they didn't need to, Lando offered. People here already know I talk to a couple of people at Mclaren regular. I don't need to say any more on the matter. Daniel still isn't up to matching Lando, race win or not.

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Mclarensenna
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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PhillipM wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:41 am
I don't need to argue what went on at the race and why the team didn't radio etc - they didn't need to, Lando offered. People here already know I talk to a couple of people at Mclaren regular. I don't need to say any more on the matter. Daniel still isn't up to matching Lando, race win or not.
of course you will not argue with facts i respect that from you and how honest you are. The fact is clear they were free to race at the restart and for at least 5 laps until Lando himself asked team orders for Dan speed it up. Its a fact. And Ric sped up by 7 tenths the following lap to help Norris from the Perez threat. Its a fact. Then Lando when out of DRS range himself suggested should he hold station which the team agreed. Its a fact. These are all facts yes. It was a fantastic 1,2 and very mature drive by both and Mclarens best result in a decade.. Its a fact also

"Daniel still isn't up to matching Lando, race win or not." <----- The facts are clear in the second half from the summer break Ric has 55 points and Lando has 40, It's a fact. Nobody can deny this fact. Yes you are entitled to your opinion saying Daniel is not matching Lando and i respect that. We are all entitled to our opinions. My opinion is they both did a great job in the second half of the season. That's my opinion. But the facts are clear points wise in the second half Ric is at 55 , Norris at 40. That is also a fact

PhillipM
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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It's not a fact, it's conjecture you're assuming because Lando asked on the radio later just to confirm it.
Have you not looked at it the other way that the reason Lando asked Daniel to speed up was so he didn't have to try to overtake Dan for the lead and risk a collision just to defend against Perez, when they could just take an easy 1-2 instead?

Like I said earlier, see what the team says, or even Ricciardo himself.
Nobody wanted to risk a 1-2 for a lead battle, and I respect Norris for standing with that even with the pace he's shown all year.

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Mclarensenna
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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PhillipM wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:11 am
It's not a fact, it's conjecture you're assuming because Lando asked on the radio later just to confirm it.
Have you not looked at it the other way that the reason Lando asked Daniel to speed up was so he didn't have to try to overtake Dan for the lead and risk a collision just to defend against Perez, when they could just take an easy 1-2 instead?

Like I said earlier, see what the team says, or even Ricciardo himself.
Nobody wanted to risk a 1-2 for a lead battle, and I respect Norris for standing with that even with the pace he's shown all year.
"It's not a fact, it's conjecture you're assuming because Lando asked on the radio later just to confirm it. " <-----


Here is the radio proof above with both drivers team radios. All facts and no conjecture.. I listed all the facts below which can be verified by listening to the radio of both drivers.

The fact is clear they were free to race at the restart and for at least 5 laps until Lando himself asked team orders for Dan speed it up. Its a fact. And Ric sped up by 7 tenths the following lap to help Norris from the Perez threat. Its a fact. Then Lando when out of DRS range himself suggested should he hold station which the team agreed. Its a fact. These are all facts yes. It was a fantastic 1,2 and very mature drive by both and Mclarens best result in a decade.. Its a fact also.
Last edited by Mclarensenna on Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

runningmanz
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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Yep Ricciardo has outscored Lando in the second half and you can add the two technical issues in as well which were clearly out if his control at Brazil and Qatar losing a few points as well.

In contrast Lando had input into those lost points at Sochi and to a lesser extent possibly in qualli at Spa. Will never know if anyone else would have dropped it too across Eau Rouge in those conditions but certainly can't say it's 100% out of the drivers control like car technical issues.

Dan struggles in the low to medium speed longer corners and generally where the car is front end limited and requires a weird style to get through those corners faster. That's not a trait of a good car that is consistent across most tracks like the RBR and Merc and I'm sure McLaren are working to remove quirks like that and make the car more predictable and consistent going forward.

As for any talk of concern with Dan's position in the team that's just nonsense. He is loved by Zak, Seidl and everyone else. They know what the issues are, what he brings to the table and why they want him. Even as recently as last race on the Unboxed video, Dan made a sarcastic joke about having to start 14th in front of Zak, Seidl, Lando etc. Zak was laughing his ass off. They know it was a couple of tenths missing Q3 on a track that doesn't suit his style in this car, nothing to panic about. Not the sign of a bloke under pressure of being moved on soon etc. Nor would they entertain that thought anyway also due to the enormous amount of goodwill and insight into what could be that Dan brought with the magnificent Monza win.

Hope we finish strong these last 2 races then cmon 2022!

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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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Planet f1 are a joke. Rated Ricciardo a 4/10 for the weekend with no mention of his fuel saving issues. He even managed to pass some cars and catch up to Leclerc while doing some fuel saving as noted on the radio comms. He was within 2-3 secs of Leclerc from lap 11 to 23 or so in 10th before he was forced to heavily save after the first pitstop, basically couldn't have deliberately driven much slower if he tried due to the sensor issue. I'd argue he was faster than Leclerc at that point but the fuel sensor issue obviously screwed him after that.

Pisspoor ignorant journalism.

https://www.planetf1.com/features/qatar ... r-ratings/

This is just another example of where ignorance and not taking a deep look into a race gives the perception to many that he drove poorly. Example he was on track at both Brazil and here at Qatar for a fine recovery drive yet its scuppered by technical issues out of his control. Things would be looking much more positive for Dan at this point without those issues. Again its a fine line between hero and zero and particularly annoying when its due to circumstances beyond the drivers control.
Last edited by runningmanz on Sat Nov 27, 2021 9:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

1m0bius1
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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People are taking this year way to seriously. Dan just moved to the team and we had a compromised design due to engine change. Just chill and wait till next season. We are not fighting for the wdc.

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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runningmanz wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:28 am
Planet f1 are a joke. Rated Ricciardo a 4/10 for the weekend with no mention of his fuel saving issues. He even managed to pass some cars and catch up to Leclerc while doing some fuel saving as noted on the radio comms. He was within 2-3 secs of Leclerc from lap 11 to 23 or so in 10th before he was forced to heavily save after the first pitstop, basically couldn't have deliberately driven much slower if he tried due to the sensor issue. I'd argue he was faster than Leclerc at that point but the fuel sensor issue obviously screwed him after that.

Pisspoor ignorant journalism.

https://www.planetf1.com/features/qatar ... r-ratings/

This is just another example of where ignorance and not taking a deep look into a race gives the perception to many that he drove poorly. Example he was on track at both Brazil and here at Qatar for a fine recovery drive yet its scuppered by technical issues out of his control. Things would be looking much more positive for Dan at this point without those issues. Again its a fine line between hero and zero and particularly annoying when its due to circumstances beyond the drivers control.
Not sure you can give him a passing grade when his team mate makes it to Q3 and he is knocked out in Q2.

BTW it's not Journalism, it an opt ed (opinion piece).

runningmanz
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 10:27 pm
runningmanz wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:28 am
Planet f1 are a joke. Rated Ricciardo a 4/10 for the weekend with no mention of his fuel saving issues. He even managed to pass some cars and catch up to Leclerc while doing some fuel saving as noted on the radio comms. He was within 2-3 secs of Leclerc from lap 11 to 23 or so in 10th before he was forced to heavily save after the first pitstop, basically couldn't have deliberately driven much slower if he tried due to the sensor issue. I'd argue he was faster than Leclerc at that point but the fuel sensor issue obviously screwed him after that.

Pisspoor ignorant journalism.

https://www.planetf1.com/features/qatar ... r-ratings/

This is just another example of where ignorance and not taking a deep look into a race gives the perception to many that he drove poorly. Example he was on track at both Brazil and here at Qatar for a fine recovery drive yet its scuppered by technical issues out of his control. Things would be looking much more positive for Dan at this point without those issues. Again its a fine line between hero and zero and particularly annoying when its due to circumstances beyond the drivers control.
Not sure you can give him a passing grade when his team mate makes it to Q3 and he is knocked out in Q2.

BTW it's not Journalism, it an opt ed (opinion piece).
Bit unfair, it's not like noone has ever recovered from a lacklustre qualifying and made a very good recovery drive. Like I said he was back up to Leclerc by lap 11 and with fuel saving issues. He was arguably faster and without these issues most likely would have finished inside the top 10. Definitely worth at least a pass mark.

mwillems
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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This Ricciardo chat keeps on rumbling. I'm scratch hing my head wo during what point anyone is trying to make? He had a bad start and then he had a better second half season.

Is he a bad driver, bad choice? No.
Did he didsapoint some folks? Yes.
Can that opinion be justified? Yes.

Does it mean he's a bad driver or that he will struggle next year? No.

If by and large everyone agrees with that, then I don't know what the point is of dissecting certain performances.

I'm not suggesting anyone can't or shouldn't, I just don't understand what the actual point is.
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Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2021 Mclaren F1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:07 pm
This Ricciardo chat keeps on rumbling. I'm scratch hing my head wo during what point anyone is trying to make? He had a bad start and then he had a better second half season.

Is he a bad driver, bad choice? No.
Did he didsapoint some folks? Yes.
Can that opinion be justified? Yes.

Does it mean he's a bad driver or that he will struggle next year? No.

If by and large everyone agrees with that, then I don't know what the point is of dissecting certain performances.

I'm not suggesting anyone can't or shouldn't, I just don't understand what the actual point is.
I don't understand why some people on the Internet are often so argumentative these days.

I think it's clear to most people that Daniel has improved over the year, but is still struggling with a car that has only had limited resources directed towards adapting it to his style. He knows he is better than he has been able to show this year and the team knows it.

As for the Daniel vs Lando arguments, does it matter? They're both top class F1 drivers are we should be grateful that we have such a strong pairing, regardless of who is better than the other.

Lest we forget where McLaren were only a few short years ago, despite having Alonso in the car.

Let's just celebrate the positives without getting bogged down in who is faster than who.
Favourite driver: Lando Norris
Favourite team: McLaren

Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! 🤦🏻‍♂️