Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[GhostF1]

No they leant from experience that unlike ferrari they cant be get away lightly if they found a grey area ie secret fuel tank,ferrari got scot free while circumventing fuel flow meter

Yeah that's why they're missing 70 HP, because they missed a "grey area" that everyone else found Honda is the only outlier in terms of the engine, how s**t it is relative to the other four. RBPT and Audi have shown that these regulations are far from impossible by mastering them as newcomers.

Everyone says that the beyond 16:1 CR is worth like 10-15 HP (while Merc says 5 -10) whatever it is ... from the video, Only Ferrari seem to be 2 KPH down and then Honda woefully down. Audi seem to be as strong as RBR and Merc, ironically. Honda missed more than just the grey area to be that far down. Or maybe you were being sarcastic ?

Agreed in that compression ratio has extremely little to do with a deficit of this size. It demonstrates an extremely premature combustion system.
Honda literally said they utilised, to great extent, in-cylinder pressure sensors to fine tune the combustion design they developed last regs. And Honda themselves said it was a "necessity" if they were to run the engine in the manner they were. The loss of ability to use them this year, to accurately monitor and tune individual cylinder events, has harmed them massively. This feels like 2017 all over again when they first brought in a TJI style ignition/injection setup... they openly admitted they had no idea how to operate it or get the best out of it but brought it in knowing it's potential and figured it out down the track. Either way, this deficit and their words just HEAVILY suggest they are back at square one again, and their "rapid combustion" tech from late 2018, and later perfected, is essentially gone and probably exacerbated by this new fuel that's in its early stages.

[Bill]

Yeah that's why they're missing 70 HP, because they missed a "grey area" that everyone else found Honda is the only outlier in terms of the engine, how s**t it is relative to the other four. RBPT and Audi have shown that these regulations are far from impossible by mastering them as newcomers.

Everyone says that the beyond 16:1 CR is worth like 10-15 HP (while Merc says 5 -10) whatever it is ... from the video, Only Ferrari seem to be 2 KPH down and then Honda woefully down. Audi seem to be as strong as RBR and Merc, ironically. Honda missed more than just the grey area to be that far down. Or maybe you were being sarcastic ?

Agreed in that compression ratio has extremely little to do with a deficit of this size. It demonstrates an extremely premature combustion system.
Honda literally said they utilised, to great extent, in-cylinder pressure sensors to fine tune the combustion design they developed last regs. And Honda themselves said it was a "necessity" if they were to run the engine in the manner they were. The loss of ability to use them this year, to accurately monitor and tune individual cylinder events, has harmed them massively. This feels like 2017 all over again when they first brought in a TJI style ignition/injection setup... they openly admitted they had no idea how to operate it or get the best out of it but brought it in knowing it's potential and figured it out down the track. Either way, this deficit and their words just HEAVILY suggest they are back at square one again, and their "rapid combustion" tech from late 2018, and later perfected, is essentially gone and probably exacerbated by this new fuel that's in its early stages.

honda said at the start their focus was on building a small high efficient motor and batteries ,they really didn't put too much focus on engine.

[diffuser]

honda said at the start their focus was on building a small high efficient motor and batteries ,they really didn't put too much focus on engine.

Well, they did say they didn't make their ICE HP targets. So it wasn't what they put in, it's what they got out of it that was lacking.

[Badger]

Everyone says that the beyond 16:1 CR is worth like 10-15 HP (while Merc says 5 -10) whatever it is ... from the video, Only Ferrari seem to be 2 KPH down and then Honda woefully down. Audi seem to be as strong as RBR and Merc, ironically. Honda missed more than just the grey area to be that far down. Or maybe you were being sarcastic ?

Agreed in that compression ratio has extremely little to do with a deficit of this size. It demonstrates an extremely premature combustion system.
Honda literally said they utilised, to great extent, in-cylinder pressure sensors to fine tune the combustion design they developed last regs. And Honda themselves said it was a "necessity" if they were to run the engine in the manner they were. The loss of ability to use them this year, to accurately monitor and tune individual cylinder events, has harmed them massively. This feels like 2017 all over again when they first brought in a TJI style ignition/injection setup... they openly admitted they had no idea how to operate it or get the best out of it but brought it in knowing it's potential and figured it out down the track. Either way, this deficit and their words just HEAVILY suggest they are back at square one again, and their "rapid combustion" tech from late 2018, and later perfected, is essentially gone and probably exacerbated by this new fuel that's in its early stages.

honda said at the start their focus was on building a small high efficient motor and batteries ,they really didn't put too much focus on engine.

Engine size is mostly proscribed, and Honda's engine is the least efficient.

[Hoffman900]

Yeah that's why they're missing 70 HP, because they missed a "grey area" that everyone else found Honda is the only outlier in terms of the engine, how s**t it is relative to the other four. RBPT and Audi have shown that these regulations are far from impossible by mastering them as newcomers.

Everyone says that the beyond 16:1 CR is worth like 10-15 HP (while Merc says 5 -10) whatever it is ... from the video, Only Ferrari seem to be 2 KPH down and then Honda woefully down. Audi seem to be as strong as RBR and Merc, ironically. Honda missed more than just the grey area to be that far down. Or maybe you were being sarcastic ?

Agreed in that compression ratio has extremely little to do with a deficit of this size. It demonstrates an extremely premature combustion system.
Honda literally said they utilised, to great extent, in-cylinder pressure sensors to fine tune the combustion design they developed last regs. And Honda themselves said it was a "necessity" if they were to run the engine in the manner they were. The loss of ability to use them this year, to accurately monitor and tune individual cylinder events, has harmed them massively. This feels like 2017 all over again when they first brought in a TJI style ignition/injection setup... they openly admitted they had no idea how to operate it or get the best out of it but brought it in knowing it's potential and figured it out down the track. Either way, this deficit and their words just HEAVILY suggest they are back at square one again, and their "rapid combustion" tech from late 2018, and later perfected, is essentially gone and probably exacerbated by this new fuel that's in its early stages.

Incorrect. They can use in-situ pressure sensors to develop and tune the engine and do everything but run them during a race weekend. Same for all teams ans both Ferrari and Merc were using “super fast combustion” concepts akin to Honda’s HCCI / TJI concept.

This is how it is in almost every racing series. Even fast amatuers (I’ve used them) use them in this way. You do everything you can with them, and then “lock in” your tune for the actual race weekend. OEMs do the same with millions of street cars as well.

[Rasoose]

This was mortifying to watch...

Context is always important. This was from Japan where their main focus was completing the first race distance of the year, and before the vibration remedy had been implemented - they'd trialed a prototype solution in practice that was taken off before Qualifying. They wouldn't have been able to run anything at full output, at least not in the GP itself, in order to protect the ES.

[ispano6]

Word is HP deficit and vibration-inducing knock are symptoms of Aramco's fuel not on the level of Shell and Petronas and a challenge to match the properties of the fuel to the combustion geometry.
As I understand it, it has been a challenge from the get go with Aramco and Valvoline not being up to par yet with ExxonMobil/Honda's synergy.

In order to reduce friction and vibrations, Honda has to run the combustion mapping sub-optimally to prevent the engine from going into a "spasm" mode that causes the vibrations. The damping is still only a mitigation and the true fix requires an upgraded fuel and matching combustion geometry. The issue appears to stem from an inconsistency in the quality of the fuel, not the energy density of the fuel.

People here might appreciate:
issues with "thermal loads," "drivability," or "ignition mapping" = fuel-combustion mismatch
combustion-induced harmonics = doesn't burn fuel consistently (due to chemistry-related knock), creates non-uniform torque pulses.

TheRACE was spot on pre-season as well. Of course, there are reasons why Aramco(Title Sponsor/GlobalPartner) isn't smeared and Honda is instead, even as far as saying the technical expertise of Aramco is necessary to develop Honda's engine in their AMR PR. I'm beginning to think that the generous ADUO granted to Honda is really a mechanism to help Aramco improve their fuel. Especially if Aramco covers the check.

If Aston Martin's car does have an engine deficit, reliability problems, or both in 2026, the blame could quite quickly be put at Honda's door. That's not even necessarily within the team itself. It'll be the automatic assumption outside too.

But there are major unknowns in the equation. Honda is working with two unproven F1 suppliers in Aramco and Valvoline, with Aramco the big factor there as fuel supplier. This will be Aramco's first F1 fuel, although it has worked on the sustainable fuel for F2 and F3 already - useful experience, but not the same thing.

All F1 fuel is custom-made for the engine in question and a close partnership is essential to meet the required standard, maximising the limited technology and chemistry that is available.

It will be a challenge for Aramco to immediately match the pedigree and longevity of rival suppliers such as Petronas for Mercedes, ExxonMobil for Red Bull, Shell for Ferrari and BP for Audi. And being behind on fuel technology would have a tangible performance impact.

[mzso]

there are reasons why Aramco(Title Sponsor/GlobalPartner) isn't smeared and Honda is instead, even as far as saying the technical expertise of Aramco is necessary to develop Honda's engine in their AMR PR. I'm beginning to think that the generous ADUO granted to Honda is really a mechanism to help Aramco improve their fuel. Especially if Aramco covers the check.

Maybe the reason is that you just came up with this story.

[FNTC]

there are reasons why Aramco(Title Sponsor/GlobalPartner) isn't smeared and Honda is instead, even as far as saying the technical expertise of Aramco is necessary to develop Honda's engine in their AMR PR. I'm beginning to think that the generous ADUO granted to Honda is really a mechanism to help Aramco improve their fuel. Especially if Aramco covers the check.

Maybe the reason is, that you just came up with this story.

Honda apologist trying to blame anything but Honda. As if the Aramco fuel is the only issue, when they have been providing F2 and F3 already for several years.

[FNTC]

The ADUO decision should be any time now. Was supposed to be before Monaco, I thought.

[mzso]

The ADUO decision should be any time now. Was supposed to be before Monaco, I thought.

They might have made it already, it's just not public yet.

[FNTC]

Autoracer rumours: https://autoracer.it/clamoroso-aduo-fia ... s-ferrari/

Claims red bull gets nothing, Merc is at 2%, Ferrari at 4%, Audi at 4 to 6% and Honda at 6 to 8%.

Translated:

The most serious situation is certainly that of Honda, which should fall within the concessions between 6 and 8% of the gap, with the recently modified rules that also grant bonuses of money and hours extra compared to what was initially planned.