2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
MadMatt
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2 stroke thread (with occasional F1 relevance!)

Post by MadMatt » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:27 pm

Has anybody heard of a 2 strokes Formula 1 engine, turbocharged ? :)

flynfrog
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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by flynfrog » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:41 am

i don't think anyone has ever used them in F1. MotoGp on the other hand up until I think 2001 was 2 stroke.

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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by WhiteBlue » Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:23 am

Apart from the fact that there will be a brand new four stroke turbo formula from 2014 you also find a lot of environmental concerns against two stroke engines. Unless something fundamental changes I see practically no chance in the next decade. Two stroke engines are not fuel efficient and they have no closed lubrication circuit. The FiA will be dead against the technology.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

MadMatt
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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by MadMatt » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:31 am

I must add it is an idea of the 1970s and that Colin Chapman was interested !

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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by tok-tokkie » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:39 am

Evinrude outboard 2-stroke motors use direct injection giving them a statified charge = very fuel efficient & environmentally friendly.
Evinrude E-TEC was the first outboard engine technology to win the American Environmental Protection Agency 2004 Clean Air Excellence Award, which recognizes low emission levels. It is also recognized as acceptable for use by the European Union. When compared to a similar 2004 four-stroke engine, carbon monoxide emissions with Evinrude E-TEC are typically 30 to 50 percent lower; and at idle are lower by a factor of 50 to 100 times. In addition, Evinrude E-TEC emits 30 to 40 percent less total particulate matter on a weight basis than a similar “ultra-low emissions” four-stroke outboard. Furthermore, oxides of nitrogen and hydrocarbon emissions for Evinrude E-TEC are similar to, if not lower than, a four-stroke outboard. There are no oil changes with this engine, as well as no belts, and no valve or throttle linkage adjustments. This makes Evinrude E-TEC engines easier to own than comparable four-stroke engines. In addition, numerous advancements combine to create the Evinrude E-TEC quiet signature sound including an exclusive idle air bypass circuit.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evinrude_Outboard_Motors

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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by FW17 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:32 pm

Image

flynfrog
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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by flynfrog » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:18 pm

WhiteBlue wrote:Apart from the fact that there will be a brand new four stroke turbo formula from 2014 you also find a lot of environmental concerns against two stroke engines. Unless something fundamental changes I see practically no chance in the next decade. Two stroke engines are not fuel efficient and they have no closed lubrication circuit. The FiA will be dead against the technology.
you might want to educate your self a little the new two strokes are cleaner and more efficient than there 4 stroke counter parts for the same power.

MadMatt
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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by MadMatt » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:57 pm

Nono I'm definitely talking about a F1 flat 6 engine turbocharged, 2 strokes, that Colin Chapman was interested in at the end of the 1970s, with a HUGE potential. It was said to be capable of 1500bhp, before the turbo era !

I knew nobody would have heard of that, but I hoped some members knew this story ! :)

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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by FW17 » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:16 am

could not find anything on the net.
Probably something that was proposed by Paul Emerys "an air-cooled flat-12 engine that had hydraulically operated valves and something very special in the way of boosting - if the finance become available."

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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by Richied76 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:04 pm

i'm sorry but are ricardo out of there minds? do they seriouslt think an engine will evacuate exhaust gas when the piston is traveling downwards? the "concept" above is not only usless as far as actually being ablt to have two sets of differeing cam's but the bloody thing will be as efficiant as painting your house with a tooth brush!

piast9
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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by piast9 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:44 pm

Richied76 wrote:i'm sorry but are ricardo out of there minds? do they seriouslt think an engine will evacuate exhaust gas when the piston is traveling downwards?
Well, all 2-strokes work that way. The pressure inside the cylinder after the combustion is higher than in exhaust manifold so the gases go out of the cylinder.

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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by Tim.Wright » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:59 pm

Richied76 wrote:i'm sorry but are ricardo out of there minds? do they seriouslt think an engine will evacuate exhaust gas when the piston is traveling downwards? the "concept" above is not only usless as far as actually being ablt to have two sets of differeing cam's but the bloody thing will be as efficiant as painting your house with a tooth brush!
I think you will find Ricardo have a pretty sound idea on the workings of an IC engine.

So, why wouldn't exhaust gases travel out of the cylinder while the piston is moving down?? Sure the cylinder pressure would be dropping, but directly after ignition it will still be high enough that it is above ambient. With high pressure in the cylinder and ambient at the exhaust exit, why would the gas flow any way than out the exhaust??

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

Richied76
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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by Richied76 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:16 pm

its just pure inefficient. you "dirty" up your fuel or send more fuel out the outlet valve. Its probably going to cool the outlet gasses which is all well and good if you worried about Nox emissions but not good if you want to burn away as much Co2 as possiable. Besides how you going to lubricate it? have a sump in a two stroke? or you going to let it run dry when its a 4 stroke? theres no NEED for this engine. especialy with VVTI, turbo charging, DPF filters, ERG valves, catalistic converters.

All things that were made to allow a 4 stroke engine to provide more power and produce less harmfull emissions. oh and the last 2 sroke car engine i remember was a small car producer from austria who produced a 2 seater 1.2ltr L4 two stroke...untill it was banned for being dirty..onto of being loud and guttless

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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by Ratatouille » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:58 am

The 2-stroke vrs. 4-stroke dilemma was pretty much settled in the early 2000's MotoGP. IIRC 2-stroke engines were allowed up to 1000cc and 4-stroke engines up to 500cc.

I remember the Pons Honda from Alex Barros using 2-stroke with higher CC's, while other teams including official Honda team using 4-stroke engines.

It was shown back then that the 2-stroke cylinders had much better torque but the 4-stroke offered much better power curve and above all driveability and top end speed.

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Re: 2 strokes Formula 1 engine

Post by flynfrog » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:52 am

Ratatouille wrote:The 2-stroke vrs. 4-stroke dilemma was pretty much settled in the early 2000's MotoGP. IIRC 2-stroke engines were allowed up to 1000cc and 4-stroke engines up to 500cc.

I remember the Pons Honda from Alex Barros using 2-stroke with higher CC's, while other teams including official Honda team using 4-stroke engines.

It was shown back then that the 2-stroke cylinders had much better torque but the 4-stroke offered much better power curve and above all driveability and top end speed.
you have that backwards. the 2 strokes were 500s the 4 strokes were 900s