Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

beelsebob wrote: Most teams are struggling with the amount of torque... How do you reduce the amount of torque? That's easy - gear longer. Hollus seems to believe that that won't actually do anything useful though.
They'd have to gear a hell of a lot longer with these turbos to get any kind of meaningful effect on the tires. It was easy with V8, but not anymore. I don't think preventing wheel spin is the main cause.

PhilS13
PhilS13
0
Joined: 28 Feb 2014, 01:00

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

beelsebob wrote:
bhall wrote:Because a gearbox multiplies torque by the same proportion in which it reduces rotation, wheel torque progressively decreases as the ratios grow longer with every upshift. Think of it as trading torque for speed in order to maintain the same power throughout.

In any case, that means a longer ratio 1st gear will indeed result in less wheel torque compared to an alternate, shorter ratio 1st gear affixed to the same engine.
That was exactly my point.

Most teams are struggling with the amount of torque... How do you reduce the amount of torque? That's easy - gear longer. Hollus seems to believe that that won't actually do anything useful though.
Hollus is right. With a flat power curve, operating in a higher gear means engine spinning slower means more engine torque because you have same power no matter the engine rpm.

Your longer gear reduces the torque multiplication but the engine outputs more of it, you end up with the same amount at the wheels.

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

PhilS13 wrote:
beelsebob wrote:
bhall wrote:Because a gearbox multiplies torque by the same proportion in which it reduces rotation, wheel torque progressively decreases as the ratios grow longer with every upshift. Think of it as trading torque for speed in order to maintain the same power throughout.

In any case, that means a longer ratio 1st gear will indeed result in less wheel torque compared to an alternate, shorter ratio 1st gear affixed to the same engine.
That was exactly my point.

Most teams are struggling with the amount of torque... How do you reduce the amount of torque? That's easy - gear longer. Hollus seems to believe that that won't actually do anything useful though.
Hollus is right. With a flat power curve, operating in a higher gear means engine spinning slower means more engine torque because you have same power no matter the engine rpm.

Your longer gear reduces the torque multiplication but the engine outputs more of it, you end up with the same amount at the wheels.
Great, then I fully expect to watch the entire grid starting in 8th gear. After all, it would be pointless to start in any other if what you say is true.

Pumaracing
Pumaracing
8
Joined: 09 Apr 2014, 06:59

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

beelsebob wrote:
bhall wrote:Because a gearbox multiplies torque by the same proportion in which it reduces rotation, wheel torque progressively decreases as the ratios grow longer with every upshift. Think of it as trading torque for speed in order to maintain the same power throughout.

In any case, that means a longer ratio 1st gear will indeed result in less wheel torque compared to an alternate, shorter ratio 1st gear affixed to the same engine.
That was exactly my point.

Most teams are struggling with the amount of torque... How do you reduce the amount of torque? That's easy - gear longer. Hollus seems to believe that that won't actually do anything useful though.
You really don't understand the maths of this I'm afraid. The power curves are essentially flat from circa 10,000 rpm upwards with these fuel flow limited engines. Therefore provided the driver doesn't let the rpm drop below 10,000 the gearing at a given road speed doesn't affect the engine power being delivered and therefore also doesn't change the wheel torque. The ONLY way to reduce wheel torque is to let the rpm drop below 10,000 (or lift off the throttle - Duh!). That would be a stupid thing to do in any gear from 4th upwards at speeds where wheel spin is not an issue and having determined the higher gear ratios for best car performance the lower ones are also fixed to obtain sensible gaps in the ratios.

Hollus is of course completely correct. Many car savvy people understand that bhp = torque x engine rpm / 5252. Far fewer understand that wheel torque is directly proportional to engine bhp being delivered to the wheels / road speed regardless of gearing from which follows that vehicle acceleration is also directly proportional to engine power being delivered to the wheels / road speed, again regardless of gearing.

As a race engine designer and vehicle dynamics specialist it's rather necessary I understand such things as clearly Hollus also does. Before you go calling "bullshit" at people in here you might pause to wonder if perhaps you could be wrong. It tends to save egg on face.
Last edited by Pumaracing on 20 Apr 2014, 11:35, edited 1 time in total.

Pumaracing
Pumaracing
8
Joined: 09 Apr 2014, 06:59

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

mathbriere27 wrote:So yeh, I'm so glad to have found this and Blanchimont's threads, as I'm trying to simulate 2014 physics/torque/power values in Grand Prix 4. I made a basic gear set after watching a lap with Magnussen in Melbourne. But I actually didn't notice the disparity between each car.

I got torque values from the 1987 Honda V6, which I copied into the game and then I set my gearing accordingly. My power peak is right between 10,000 and 10,500 RPM, nearing 490 lb-ft. And 418 lb-ft at 12,500 RPM.
Your power and torque values are a mile out. 490 ft lbs at 10,500 rpm would be 980 bhp. The actual net wheel bhp after transmission and tyre losses from 10.5k upwards is about 700 including the 160 bhp from ERS and flywheel bhp will probably be about 70 bhp higher but we still need to do a bit more work on transmission losses.

mathbriere27
mathbriere27
2
Joined: 19 Apr 2014, 06:58

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

Pumaracing wrote:
mathbriere27 wrote:So yeh, I'm so glad to have found this and Blanchimont's threads, as I'm trying to simulate 2014 physics/torque/power values in Grand Prix 4. I made a basic gear set after watching a lap with Magnussen in Melbourne. But I actually didn't notice the disparity between each car.

I got torque values from the 1987 Honda V6, which I copied into the game and then I set my gearing accordingly. My power peak is right between 10,000 and 10,500 RPM, nearing 490 lb-ft. And 418 lb-ft at 12,500 RPM.
Your power and torque values are a mile out. 490 ft lbs at 10,500 rpm would be 980 bhp. The actual net wheel bhp after transmission and tyre losses from 10.5k upwards is about 700 including the 160 bhp from ERS and flywheel bhp will probably be about 70 bhp higher but we still need to do a bit more work on transmission losses.
Oh yes I'm aware of that :) This has been a WIP project for months already, so a lot of progress has to be made until I get something nearing real life figures. Then again, the way the game works makes it so that torque values can be counterbalanced with lower bhp figures in another file. Now imagine that, this winter, I even thought they would rev up to 15,000 RPM ! I didn't even think about the fuel flow vs. RPM concept.

Also, I find the whole concept of friction loss very interesting, and I have yet to find out whether GP4 takes it into account or not. That's what I love about this thread, you learn something new every day :) Keep it going guys, you're inspiring me to keep pushing my in-depth technical knowledge of the sport I love. I have to admit though, my lap times are quite realistic, albeit a little too quick sometimes, but I know I'll be able to improve engine power and torque data with all your help ! Thanks to everyone for the feedback, that means a lot to me.

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

In case this is driving a misunderstanding: When I mentioned an approximately constant power curve, I meant only between 10000-13000 rpm, give or take.

Moving on:
Gear	Merc.	Will.	McLaren	F.India	T.Rosso	R. Bull	Lotus	Marus.	Ferrari	Sauber
1	13.597		19.288	14.636						
2	11.509	11.238	12.579	11.584	12.429	13.508		11.815	11.403	11.045
3	9.577	9.600	9.347	9.519	9.305	9.913	10.173	9.333	9.425	9.025
4	7.879	8.021	7.732	7.904	7.713	7.825	8.006	7.776	7.708	7.487
5	6.299	6.824	6.344	6.293	6.486	6.460	6.725	6.642	6.628	6.586
6	5.105	5.702	5.454	5.122	5.471	5.524	5.704	5.778	5.784	5.679
7	4.299	4.953	4.839	4.399	4.723	4.886	5.039	5.141	5.113	5.128
8		4.401	4.376		4.278	4.418	4.350		4.608
Interestingly, there might be something about choosing your ratios to avoid wheelspin. There are wild differences in gear ratios in 1st and 2nd, and again in 6th, 7th, 8th, but all teams converge in the middle. All 4th gears are surprisingly similar across the grid, removing Sauber the range is only about 3%. The way they are now, 4th gears are useful between 130 and 190Km/h. This year wheelspin goes up to about 150Km/h. I assume that the guys that decided these ratios know what they are doing, so maybe there is something about exiting corners at 130Km/h at about 9000rpm so one can floor the pedal and let the fuel delivery increase wheel power (=wheel torque) as the speed increases. This would mean optimizing power delivery for this critical 130-150Km/h range. There being "half a gear off" could have a significant effect. Much below this point I don't think it matters much, you'll have wheelspin no matter which gear you select, much above, you wont.

Beelsebob, can we agree that the actual gear ratio is what matters, and not the gear's name?
My point of view, and many other's on this matter, in more detail here: More torque at the wheels?
Last edited by hollus on 20 Apr 2014, 12:28, edited 2 times in total.
Rivals, not enemies.

Diff-user
Diff-user
0
Joined: 11 May 2012, 19:23

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

For whatever this information is worth, Nico engaged 8th gear in the back straight when overtaking Alonso. Lap 42 or 43, I believe
money makes the cars go round
engines are there just for the sound
V10.......V8.......V6....... V none
And that's the story of Formula 1

mathbriere27
mathbriere27
2
Joined: 19 Apr 2014, 06:58

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

Diff-user wrote:For whatever this information is worth, Nico engaged 8th gear in the back straight when overtaking Alonso. Lap 42 or 43, I believe
I concur, he did select 8th gear for a second or two before braking for the hairpin. The onboard mix feed was live on Alonso's rear facing camera at that moment so we have no speed vs. RPM data for Nico's 8th gear :/ Maybe we'll get lucky during the Spanish GP.

beelsebob
beelsebob
85
Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

hollus wrote:In case this is driving a misunderstanding: When I mentioned an approximately constant power curve, I meant only between 10000-13000 rpm, give or take.

Moving on:
Gear	Merc.	Will.	McLaren	F.India	T.Rosso	R. Bull	Lotus	Marus.	Ferrari	Sauber
1	13.597		19.288	14.636						
2	11.509	11.238	12.579	11.584	12.429	13.508		11.815	11.403	11.045
3	9.577	9.600	9.347	9.519	9.305	9.913	10.173	9.333	9.425	9.025
4	7.879	8.021	7.732	7.904	7.713	7.825	8.006	7.776	7.708	7.487
5	6.299	6.824	6.344	6.293	6.486	6.460	6.725	6.642	6.628	6.586
6	5.105	5.702	5.454	5.122	5.471	5.524	5.704	5.778	5.784	5.679
7	4.299	4.953	4.839	4.399	4.723	4.886	5.039	5.141	5.113	5.128
8		4.401	4.376		4.278	4.418	4.350		4.608
Interestingly, there might be something about choosing your ratios to avoid wheelspin. There are wild differences in gear ratios in 1st and 2nd, and again in 6th, 7th, 8th, but all teams converge in the middle. All 4th gears are surprisingly similar across the grid, removing Sauber the range is only about 3%. The way they are now, 4th gears are useful between 130 and 190Km/h. This year wheelspin goes up to about 150Km/h. I assume that the guys that decided these ratios know what they are doing, so maybe there is something about exiting corners at 130Km/h at about 9000rpm so one can floor the pedal and let the fuel delivery increase wheel power (=wheel torque) as the speed increases. This would mean optimizing power delivery for this critical 130-150Km/h range. There being "half a gear off" could have a significant effect. Much below this point I don't think it matters much, you'll have wheelspin no matter which gear you select, much above, you wont.

Beelsebob, can we agree that the actual gear ratio is what matters, and not the gear's name?
My point of view, and many other's on this matter, in more detail here: More torque at the wheels?
:shock:

It's almost like I wasn't talking bollocks at all ;)

#-o

PhilS13
PhilS13
0
Joined: 28 Feb 2014, 01:00

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

hollus wrote:In case this is driving a misunderstanding: When I mentioned an approximately constant power curve, I meant only between 10000-13000 rpm, give or take.

Interestingly, there might be something about choosing your ratios to avoid wheelspin. There are wild differences in gear ratios in 1st and 2nd, and again in 6th, 7th, 8th, but all teams converge in the middle. All 4th gears are surprisingly similar across the grid, removing Sauber the range is only about 3%. The way they are now, 4th gears are useful between 130 and 190Km/h. This year wheelspin goes up to about 150Km/h. I assume that the guys that decided these ratios know what they are doing, so maybe there is something about exiting corners at 130Km/h at about 9000rpm so one can floor the pedal and let the fuel delivery increase wheel power (=wheel torque) as the speed increases. This would mean optimizing power delivery for this critical 130-150Km/h range. There being "half a gear off" could have a significant effect. Much below this point I don't think it matters much, you'll have wheelspin no matter which gear you select, much above, you wont.

Beelsebob, can we agree that the actual gear ratio is what matters, and not the gear's name
My point of view, and many other's on this matter, in more detail here: More torque at the wheels?
I think you see something that isn't there. Wheelspin occurs up to 150km/h in a straight line maybe. That was also the case in 2013. The more progressive power delivery was useful out of fast corners when the rears are still laterally loaded. Below 150km/h you are likely coming out of a slow corner, going pretty straight, in 2nd or 3rd gear and struggling for grip no matter if the power curve is flat or peaky.

The change drivers are talking about is the immediate max power delivered when the car is coming out of fast corners and still laterally loaded. Now you get oversteer and wheelspin that wasn't there in 2013. Anything happening below 150km/h hasn't changed much IMO

User avatar
ian_s
13
Joined: 03 Feb 2009, 14:44
Location: Medway Towns

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

mathbriere27 wrote:
Diff-user wrote:For whatever this information is worth, Nico engaged 8th gear in the back straight when overtaking Alonso. Lap 42 or 43, I believe
I concur, he did select 8th gear for a second or two before braking for the hairpin. The onboard mix feed was live on Alonso's rear facing camera at that moment so we have no speed vs. RPM data for Nico's 8th gear :/ Maybe we'll get lucky during the Spanish GP.
i've got an idea as to why we arent seeing 8th gear being used much by some teams, Rosberg changed to 8th as he was overtaking, which is when you want the maximum power available. so going back to the ideal change points suggested further back, this change took the revs down to the best point on the power curve.
when maximum power isnt such an issue, they stay in 7th gear, as the higher RPM means they are using less fuel! its simple fuel saving.

User avatar
Godius
186
Joined: 02 Mar 2013, 12:49
Location: NL

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

I just watched some onboard video's of the race via the Danish sport 1 site, I made a few screenshots and Rosberg achieved quite a top speed in 7th gear without DRS but with a nice tow from Hülkenberg:

Image

Image

Image

http://imgur.com/a/waeWu

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
93
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

Godius wrote:I just watched some onboard video's of the race via the Danish sport 1 site, I made a few screenshots and Rosberg achieved quite a top speed in 7th gear without DRS but with a nice tow from Hülkenberg:
Would be interesting to see his overtake of Vettel after the first stop, he was 8-9ths behind Vettel at the start of the back straight, and overtook him into the corner.

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 01:21
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Actual 2014 gearing from online videos

Post

A different view at this year's gearing: graphed as percentage of the mean value with 1st (few and unreliable) left out:

Image

Ignoring Sauber (open circles), which is doing its own thing, the compression in 4th gear is clear to see. There is something about having a 4th gear ratio of 7.8 or thereabouts. I'd say there is something about having a ratio of 7.7 - 8.0, it doesn't have to be 4th, it could also have been 3rd or 5th, but all teams chose 4th. Probably the space to cover between 0 and 150Km/h is too big for 2 gears and too small for 4 extra gears. So all teams chose 3 gears below the 7.8 ratio, but it can be seen that the exact values of 1st, 2nd and 3rd don't seem to matter much. Some go up then down, some down, then up.

Then, from 4th gear up, there were two ways to go. Either use the remaining 4 gears to reach 340Km/h (after China it looks like Ferrari with the shortest 8th gear actually is the team that got it right) and accept changing ratios later in the year, or use only 3 and keep 8th for Spa and Monza, in which case one might not need to change ratios at all, or one could have the luxury of a set of ratios for the last race only, which will score double unless somebody waves the checkered flag before 75% of the distance. Force India and Mercedes (cross symbols) chose this path and they have similar ratios throughout. The rest of the teams (solid symbols) chose the first path, and actually have similar(ish) 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th. They spread from 4th, but not that much, and again some go up and then down, some down and then up.

Another thing to note is that Red Bull is not geared that short after all. It is very short in 2nd and 3rd gear, and presumably in 1st gear too, but is sits in the middle of the teams choosing a shorter 8th from 4th to 8th.

I've reordered the teams below and used Sauber as a divider, and it is visible how there are only two main schools of thought being used.
Gear	Willi.	McLar.	T.Rosso	R.Bull	Lotus	Marus.	Ferrari		Sauber		Merce.	F.India
1		19.29									13.60	14.64
2	11.24	12.58	12.43	13.51		11.81	11.40		11.05		11.51	11.56
3	9.60	9.35	9.31	9.91	10.17	9.33	9.43		9.03		9.58	9.52
4	8.02	7.73	7.71	7.82	8.01	7.78	7.71		7.49		7.88	7.90
5	6.82	6.34	6.49	6.46	6.72	6.64	6.63		6.59		6.30	6.29
6	5.70	5.45	5.47	5.52	5.70	5.78	5.78		5.68		5.11	5.12
7	4.95	4.84	4.72	4.89	5.04	5.14	5.11		5.13		4.30	4.39
8	4.40	4.38	4.28	4.42	4.35		4.61
Well, that's how I see it anyways. Maybe I am reading too much into this?
Rivals, not enemies.