Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Chuckjr
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Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Chuckjr » Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:31 am

I'll erase this topic if there's another forum to discuss the new 2015 Honda F1 power unit. I searched but couldn't find one.

I'll start with a simple question...do we know what kind of turbo (split, single unit, other) Honda is developing?

Secondly, what do we know about their new power unit? Anything...? I'd like to learn a bit of what Macca will have to work with next year.

xpensive
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by xpensive » Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:45 am

I'm quite certain that the Honda unit will be either a downstroked IRL-engine;

Image

Or an extension of this, including Gilles Simon;

Image
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by flynfrog » Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:16 pm

xpensive wrote:I'm quite certain that the Honda unit will be either a downstroked IRL-engine;

http://images.gizmag.com/inline/indycar ... urbo-2.jpg

will they just pull two of the spark plugs to make it a V6?

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Powershift » Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:48 pm

flynfrog wrote:
xpensive wrote:I'm quite certain that the Honda unit will be either a downstroked IRL-engine;

http://images.gizmag.com/inline/indycar ... urbo-2.jpg

will they just pull two of the spark plugs to make it a V6?

Indycar runs V6's, 2.2L
Winning is the most important. Everything is consequence of that. Being second is to be the first of the ones who lose.-Ayrton Senna

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by flynfrog » Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:38 pm

Powershift wrote:
flynfrog wrote:
xpensive wrote:I'm quite certain that the Honda unit will be either a downstroked IRL-engine;

http://images.gizmag.com/inline/indycar ... urbo-2.jpg

will they just pull two of the spark plugs to make it a V6?

Indycar runs V6's, 2.2L

I has the dumb I was thinking of the older V8s :oops:

Chuckjr
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Chuckjr » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:08 pm

xpensive wrote:I'm quite certain that the Honda unit will be either a downstroked IRL-engine;

http://images.gizmag.com/inline/indycar ... urbo-2.jpg

Or an extension of this, including Gilles Simon;

http://scarbsf1.files.wordpress.com/201 ... inline.jpg

Ok so you're thinking single turbo, not split, ah-la Merc?

Will be interesting to learn what they do that's unique compaired to the others.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by bill shoe » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:48 pm

Honda has many bits of useful information that the other engine manufacturers could not use--

They may have bought some consulting and IP from the PURE and Cosworth engine programs. Breaking out the checkbook may buy useful perspective. I think they are at least using people from the PURE program.

From their partner McLaren, they know how much power a competitive engine makes. They will also know the contribution from the direct IC, MGU-H and MGU-K portions.

They know the split-turbo arrangement of Mercedes seems to work well for overall packaging and speed. They will have good perspective on this from McLaren also.

They know that in-car rather than dyno testing is critical (even more than in previous years) to test the real-world power and reliability of the engine. Expect a strange NSX to appear on Honda's Suzuka test track.

They know that planning and integrating the cooling with the constructor (McLaren) is very important. There are many miscellaneous things to cool, unlike the old V8's where you could spec cooling for water and oil then throw the engine over the wall at the constructor.

They know that the other powertrains all have weight issues to some degree or another. So they know if they are a bit overweight then it's not the end of the world, but if they can truly nail the weight target then they will have a competitive advantage.

They know that the current engines all dwell in the lower end of the 10,500-15,000 rpm "full-fuel" range, specifically 10,000-12000 with occasional spurts to 13,000 rpm.

They know the FIA fuel-flow meter may have a small variation in performance depending on how it's integrated in the car. They will want to research this in a calm, systematic way.

It might be worth their while to buy 100-200 FFM's over the course of this year and then try to measure them (somehow) in a really accurate way to determine which have been built or calibrated in such a way as to allow a tiny bit more power in-car. Basically take the advantageous end of the variance. Buy them over the course of the year so they come from different build and calibration lots, and therefore probably have more variance. But of course all engine manufacturers are probably doing this already, so no advantage, just "catching up".

This information and more constitutes a large technical advantage for Honda. I think their fundamental difficulty is hiring and assembling and managing the large new technical organization that will do this. I heard R&D started in Japan, but some will be done at the new England base? Mercedes may have enlarged their staff for the effort, but they already had a successful base to build from (Mercedes Benz High Performance Engines, formerly Illmor).
Last edited by bill shoe on Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chuckjr
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Chuckjr » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:10 pm

Fantastic Bill!! Thank you.

What kind of homologation schedule will Honda be required to follow--the same as current teams as it stands now, or the same as teams have been following but a one year delay in deadlines? Seems it would only be fair to be the latter.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Pierce89 » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:41 pm

bill shoe wrote:Honda has many bits of useful information that the other engine manufacturers could not use--

They have bought some consulting and IP from the PURE and Cosworth engine programs. Breaking out the checkbook may buy useful perspective. I think they are at least using people from the PURE program.

From their partner McLaren, they know how much power a competitive engine makes. They will also know the contribution from the direct IC, MGU-H and MGU-K portions.

They know the split-turbo arrangement of Mercedes seems to work well for overall packaging and speed. They will have good perspective on this from McLaren also.

They know that in-car rather than dyno testing is critical (even more than in previous years) to test the real-world power and reliability of the engine. Expect a strange NSX to appear on Honda's Suzuka test track.

They know that planning and integrating the cooling with the constructor (McLaren) is very important. There are many miscellaneous things to cool, unlike the old V8's where you could spec cooling for water and oil then throw the engine over the wall at the constructor.

They know that the other powertrains all have weight issues to some degree or another. So they know if they are a bit overweight then it's not the end of the world, but if they can truly nail the weight target then they will have a competitive advantage.

They know that the current engines all dwell in the lower end of the 10,500-15,000 rpm "full-fuel" range, specifically 10,000-12000 with occasional spurts to 13,000 rpm.

They know the FIA fuel-flow meter may have a small variation in performance depending on how it's integrated in the car. They will want to research this in a calm, systematic way.

It might be worth their while to buy 100-200 FFM's over the course of this year and then try to measure them (somehow) in a really accurate way to determine which have been built or calibrated in such a way as to allow a tiny bit more power in-car. Basically take the advantageous end of the variance. Buy them over the course of the year so they come from different build and calibration lots, and therefore probably have more variance. But of course all engine manufacturers are probably doing this already, so no advantage, just "catching up".

This information and more constitutes a large technical advantage for Honda. I think their fundamental difficulty is hiring and assembling and managing the large new technical organization that will do this. I heard R&D started in Japan, but some will be done at the new England base? Mercedes may have enlarged their staff for the effort, but they already had a successful base to build from (Mercedes Benz High Performance Engines, formerly Illmor).
Everyone else has learned these things as well. Everyone can build practically new PU's next year. The only difference for Honda is a 1 season deficit in running these units on track. Rather than any competitive advantage, I feel waiting a year will just help avoid dead ends.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

xpensive
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by xpensive » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:58 pm

And you do what for a living Bill? :wink:
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by bill shoe » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:21 pm

xpensive wrote:And you do what for a living Bill? :wink:
I speculate about things on which I have absolutely no real insider knowledge.

Pierce- I don't know what the homologation rules are next season-- does everyone get a clean slate?

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by SiLo » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:26 pm

Would seem a little unfair if they got a years advantage, but then again, when did they start? Mercedes may have started years before the announcement of the Honda-Mclaren relationship meaning that Honda he's less time to develop. The only difference is they will have a reference engine to work with for a year, rather than running blind on the competition.
Felipe Baby!

xpensive
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by xpensive » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:39 pm

bill shoe wrote: ...
I speculate about things on which I have absolutely no real insider knowledge.
...
I can do that, how do one apply?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Ganxxta » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:52 pm

bill shoe wrote:
xpensive wrote:And you do what for a living Bill? :wink:
I speculate about things on which I have absolutely no real insider knowledge.

Pierce- I don't know what the homologation rules are next season-- does everyone get a clean slate?
Almost, for 2015 only following parts cannot be changed:

-Upper/lower crankcase: Cylinder bore spacing, deck height, bank stagger.
-Crankshaft: Crank throw, main bearing journal diameter, rod bearing journal diameter.
-Air valve system: Including compressor, air pressure regulation devices.

If I understand this right, one could go ahead and change for example the turbo layout to Mercedes split config if its really that beneficially.
Or is this in the compressor statement included? Or are only the internals of the compressor meant but not the position for example?

More information on the planned freeze here:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/09/16/f ... s-in-2014/

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Chuckjr » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:47 am

Expensive you crack me up! Lol. Nice

It will be interesting to see if that rogue NSX finds it's way to the Honda test track. Whatever happens, I just hope somebody can take it to Merc - they seem to far ahead of the game atm...it's like 2001 & Ferrari part deux. Don't want that by any stretch.