Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:48 pm
Also another article which I'm pretty sure most of you would like to read:

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... _split_35/

It mostly talks about Gasly's comments in Silverstone, which seems to have annoyed a few people - at least that's my impression from the article. It explains the fact that although it is a given that Honda is 'underpowered', Toro Rosso seems to have been running more downforce than their competitors, thus affecting speed in long straights. Anyway, nothing much new here that we didn't already know :)

The interesting part/s, which we all have been looking forward to (at least I do), comes at the end:
Of course, it is true that the power of Honda is inferior to the power unit of Mercedes AMG and Ferrari's. Not only is it inferior in the normal mode but also the fact that the preliminary mode in which the ignition timing is advanced and the knocking is frequent but the power is twisted has not been put into practical use is also a factor which is widening the difference in the preliminary round.
and the following:
From a realistic viewpoint, no matter how much power scarcity we are crying here, we cannot hope Honda's power up until spec 3 will be introduced at the end of the summer vacation. The solution to be made is to solve the problem in front of it.

Honda focuses on the development of spec 3 and practical application of preliminary mode, Toro Rosso has to proceed with understanding and practical application of aerodynamic package.
My understanding is that by 'preliminary mode' they are referring to the quali mode, which seems to be coming in spec 3? :D

It would be great if we can actually get some help to properly translate this from Japanese. I'm afraid I cannot help with this one, since my Japanese knowledge is only limited to a couple of romanji words. Arigatou gozaimasu :D
I would take the meaning of 'preliminary' to mean early or initial mode. I would read it as referring to the unmodified mode, to which any 'extra modes' are in improvement.

I looked it up just to be sure and the dictionary definition of it is~ preparatory, introductory, initial, opening.
It could be a translation, or just me being nit-picky but read it this way and it sounds like there is more coming
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

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Wouter
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:00 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:30 pm
Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:48 pm

Confirmed that in this context, 'propulsore' refers to the Power Unit.

Thanks @Revs84. Does Power Unit means only ICE or all components in this context?
Often means a new PU all components.
The article does not put any reference to which components were a 'test' spec, but we know that at least 2 or possibly more must have been introduced, based on this part:
The upgrade, which was done in Austria, required a change of all PU components due to the hardware changes involved
We've seen in several cases that when a component such as a new turbo is developed, this usually also involves other upgraded components such as mgu-h for example, so this seems to be a similar case. Just doesn't specify 'which' are the components in questions.

Also from the following article, we do know that indeed, Honda added a complete PU to Hartley's pool saying it was a Tactical move:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motors ... 54162/amp/
Thanks, @Revs84

Revs84
Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:30 pm
Revs84 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:48 pm
Also another article which I'm pretty sure most of you would like to read:

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... _split_35/

It mostly talks about Gasly's comments in Silverstone, which seems to have annoyed a few people - at least that's my impression from the article. It explains the fact that although it is a given that Honda is 'underpowered', Toro Rosso seems to have been running more downforce than their competitors, thus affecting speed in long straights. Anyway, nothing much new here that we didn't already know :)

The interesting part/s, which we all have been looking forward to (at least I do), comes at the end:
Of course, it is true that the power of Honda is inferior to the power unit of Mercedes AMG and Ferrari's. Not only is it inferior in the normal mode but also the fact that the preliminary mode in which the ignition timing is advanced and the knocking is frequent but the power is twisted has not been put into practical use is also a factor which is widening the difference in the preliminary round.
and the following:
From a realistic viewpoint, no matter how much power scarcity we are crying here, we cannot hope Honda's power up until spec 3 will be introduced at the end of the summer vacation. The solution to be made is to solve the problem in front of it.

Honda focuses on the development of spec 3 and practical application of preliminary mode, Toro Rosso has to proceed with understanding and practical application of aerodynamic package.
My understanding is that by 'preliminary mode' they are referring to the quali mode, which seems to be coming in spec 3? :D

It would be great if we can actually get some help to properly translate this from Japanese. I'm afraid I cannot help with this one, since my Japanese knowledge is only limited to a couple of romanji words. Arigatou gozaimasu :D
I would take the meaning of 'preliminary' to mean early or initial mode. I would read it as referring to the unmodified mode, to which any 'extra modes' are in improvement.

I looked it up just to be sure and the dictionary definition of it is~ preparatory, introductory, initial, opening.
It could be a translation, or just me being nit-picky but read it this way and it sounds like there is more coming
To be honest, it's mostly an assumption on my side. Would really like to see a properly translated version of the article, which may give more insight on this.

However, the article mentions ignition advancement here, which from my limited technical knowledge, is usually done to achieve more power at higher RPMs? Although can be risky. Hence why I thought that this could be related to a quali mode. This coupled up with the fact that Gasly hinted that a quali mode might be coming soon.

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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You are probably right. What went through my mind was they he knew there was more power available right now but was getting ratty as he had to drive with it in a safer or understood mode.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

aral
aral
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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This thread has gone badly off topic and with discussion of the V10 , weight of cars etc etc. The thread is about the Honda PU as used currently, so please stick to the topic. Off topic posts have been removed. Thanks.

Talisman
Talisman
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:30 pm
I would take the meaning of 'preliminary' to mean early or initial mode. I would read it as referring to the unmodified mode, to which any 'extra modes' are in improvement.

I looked it up just to be sure and the dictionary definition of it is~ preparatory, introductory, initial, opening.
It could be a translation, or just me being nit-picky but read it this way and it sounds like there is more coming

However on this particular issue the article is clear and preliminary is a mistranslation. They mean a qualifying mode. What is less clear is whether Honda has one on the ICE which isn't particularly effective or if they don't have one at all.

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Thunder
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Well friendly reminders don't seem to help, so i'll lock this Thread for now until a decision has been made how to further proceed.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

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turbof1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Right so, the continuous going off topic put the moderator to thinking: how can we avoid it?

Naturally one part is that the human being always will try divert from the path carefully laid out in front of him or her. So it speaks for itself we will have more of these situations in future. Especially when things go south with the power unit.

But the last few weeks this has been abnormally frequent in this topic. Us closing the topic is very indicative to that.

So we thought about some ground rules:

This is a power unit hardware & software topic. Strict forum rules are in place here to safeguard the topic's quality. The topic has the goal to generate discussion based on physical facts regarding the parts out of which the power unit is composed of. A lot of engineers participate in these topics and even though everybody is allowed to freely join the discussion, everybody is also expected to keep up with said engineers or otherwise people who have more experience and knowledge than others. To ensure that, here are some clarifications, rules and moderator rights to intervene:
  • People are allowed to discuss all specific parts that are mechanically and/or electronically involved in the motion and propulsion of the F1 car. What we consider on topic parts are: power unit components, power unit software, power unit ancillaries exlusively for mechanical means, power unit fuel and oil and power unit battery technology.
  • Conjecture on possible solutions that are not visible is allowed, but only if the opinion is staved through rational argumentation. That rational argumentation can be, but is not limited to, mathematical equations, GPS data, images, videos, work experience, academic experience,... .
  • Power unit discussion in terms of aerodynamics is not allowed here. This has to happen in the car thread.
  • People are allowed to quote articles, but only the part of the article that is relevant to a power unit component. Relevancy of software falls under Control Electronics. Said person should post the quote and leave a link to the full article below the quote.
  • People are allowed to quote the technical or sportive regulations and/or any possible leaked technical directive, but only the regulations that are relevant to the discussion. Quoting regulations can be used as a means to prove or disprove theories. Regarding legality of a power unit, the regulations can only be discussed in order to show HOW something is legal and not IF something is legal. This to avoid unwanted accusations and conjecture around "cheating".
  • Cheating can ONLY be discussed when there is an official verdict from the stewards, the FIA International Tribunal and/or the FIA International Court of Appeal.
  • People are not allowed to swear, curse or insult in this topic. We expect everyone to behave in a decent manner
  • Members should only adress the content of someone's content and never the person, this to avoid creating personal fueds. This also counts for persons not participating in this topic like for instance team bosses, engineers working or overseeing power unit development, ... . This to avoid gratuitous negativity.
  • Discussion can only be about the current era (2014-present) power unit. Comparison, nostalgic posts,... about previous era power sources are not allowed.
  • Anything not relevant to the power unit is not allowed.
  • Comparisons between different power units are only allowed if the post specifically dials back to the power unit of this topic. Posts solely about a different power unit are not allowed.
  • No gratuitous negativity whatsoever. Power units will break down and people will want to vent the frustration, but it is not allowed here. When a power unit breaks down, discussion is only allowed to be about what broke and how it possibly can be fixed.
  • Members are not allowed to pick up on somebody else's off topic posts.
  • Moderators will intervene at their own judgement when off topic discussion happens.
  • Moderators have the right to act on off topic discussion in a pletora of ways, including but not limited to: warnings, bans, deleting posts, closing the topic.
  • Should off topic discussion occure and a moderator has not yet picked up on it, we encourage the members to hit the report button. This way it will be brought to the moderators' attention.
  • Moderators have the right to update this list whenever they deem it necessary.
#AeroFrodo

Jejking
Jejking
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:38 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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turbof1 wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:57 am
Right so, the continuous going off topic put the moderator to thinking: how can we avoid it?

Naturally one part is that the human being always will try divert from the path carefully laid out in front of him or her. So it speaks for itself we will have more of these situations in future. Especially when things go south with the power unit.

But the last few weeks this has been abnormally frequent in this topic. Us closing the topic is very indicative to that.

HUMONGOUSLY LONG LIST

have you guys considered putting this as an announcement to the other threads as well? I'd pin it. This is going to get lost in a couple of pages time. Good effort, by the way. It was necessary.

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turbof1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Jejking wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:30 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:57 am
Right so, the continuous going off topic put the moderator to thinking: how can we avoid it?

Naturally one part is that the human being always will try divert from the path carefully laid out in front of him or her. So it speaks for itself we will have more of these situations in future. Especially when things go south with the power unit.

But the last few weeks this has been abnormally frequent in this topic. Us closing the topic is very indicative to that.

HUMONGOUSLY LONG LIST

have you guys considered putting this as an announcement to the other threads as well? I'd pin it. This is going to get lost in a couple of pages time. Good effort, by the way. It was necessary.

We are still discussing how we will approach that. We currently have some alternative ideas worth exploring which will be generally applied.
#AeroFrodo

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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News from our Japanese members has dried up. To not get reprimanded I wont say why. Ha.
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LH44

McMika98
McMika98
-40
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The thread is a ghosttown now, only thing interesting talked in PU world is in the Ferrari thread. At the risk of being slapped by moderators, me opines that the temp closures and riot policing have sucked the life here.
Now when do we get to see Spec 3 engine, ferrari have it, Renault next race, Honda ??

Singabule
Singabule
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sad but this thread die after wazari san out.

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Thunder
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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McMika98 wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:49 am
The thread is a ghosttown now, only thing interesting talked in PU world is in the Ferrari thread. At the risk of being slapped by moderators, me opines that the temp closures and riot policing have sucked the life here.
Now when do we get to see Spec 3 engine, ferrari have it, Renault next race, Honda ??
Why does this Thread need 2 new Pages every Day? If there's nothing on Topic to Discuss there is nothing to Discuss. It's that simple. And after over 900 Pages quite understandable. I'd rather have 5 quality Posts per Week in here than 5 quality posts buried by 50 Off Topic Comments that add nothing to the Discussion. :wink:
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

McMika98
McMika98
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Thunder wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:17 am

Why does this Thread need 2 new Pages every Day? If there's nothing on Topic to Discuss there is nothing to Discuss. It's that simple. And after over 900 Pages quite understandable. I'd rather have 5 quality Posts per Week in here than 5 quality posts buried by 50 Off Topic Comments that add nothing to the Discussion. :wink:
Thats your ophinion and perspective, while i agree with some of it, i am more inclined to lean the other way. Bit like in life you cant just expect gold nuggets on every river bed. My view is that a lively ongoing debate may occasionaly bring some interesting tidbits and encourage others. Thats me though, i enjoy my shopping around low to medium chains as opposed to upmarket chains.
Anyways back to topic of the engine, does anyone know if there is a new fuel for Honda?