Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The shockwaves from the explosions are supersonic so it should pass through the turbocharger without much dampening. The popping and bangs is then what we hear at it expands from the exhaust i suppose.

It definitely sounds like rally anti-lag. It's probably a lest costly energy conversion than sapping energy from the ERS to spin up the turbocharger.
Under braking is when the F1 car is most inefficient but also when it uses small amounts of fuel, so the cost of precisely injecting some additional fuel into the exhaust to prevent use of the MGUH maybe works out in the long run for them?

In terms of turbine blade reliability. Likely Honda is using some sort of Cermet blade to take the impacts.
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GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:20 pm
Well the rattattataattaa sound is the ICE firing only 3 cylinders under breaking. The deactivated cylinders could be pumping just air, cooling the turbocharger.

Also, the F2 cars are spitting real flames almost half of all their races. The turbo’s are much more durable and antilag more controlled nowadays.
Yeah I would agree, the "rattattatatata" noise definitely sounds like skip fire operation which allows for varying combinations of cylinders to be cut off with the exhaust valves still open, significantly reducing pumping losses, increasing efficiency. And varying combinations of cylinder cuts would affect how "intense" the operation would be.
Doing this, reduces natural spark ignition engine braking, BUT, they could be using the MGU-K to compensate.

So let's think, if we assume skip fire (the "Honda noise") is to reduce pumping losses, there is a gain there in overall efficiency, what you do lose though is natural engine braking but this would allow the programming of the MGU-K, in full generation mode, to recover much more energy in slowing the engine down when off throttle or braking as it would not be competing with spark engine overrun resistance.. Ingenious.

Then add that to this new behaviour which has been prevalent since Spec 4 and the new Mobil fuel was brought in, it seems clear they are efficient enough ICE side to have excess fuel to play with and as such have introduced what is sounding like an antilag system by dumping fuel into the switched off cylinders while skip fire is active (the big bangs and pops). This would have two benefits:
1. Piston/Cylinder cooling from cool fuel injection
2. Causing backfires when it passes into the exhaust unburnt, keeping the turbo spooled without requiring electrical energy use on the MGU-H to do so, the saved energy can then be stored for use by the MGU-K during maximum power modes.

The negative to antilag is turbine damage, however this could be something HondaJet is assisting with on designing impellers that can withstand the shock damage and the sudden heat rise.

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JonoNic
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:20 pm
Well the rattattataattaa sound is the ICE firing only 3 cylinders under breaking. The deactivated cylinders could be pumping just air, cooling the turbocharger.

Also, the F2 cars are spitting real flames almost half of all their races. The turbo’s are much more durable and antilag more controlled nowadays.
Yeah I would agree, the "rattattatatata" noise definitely sounds like skip fire operation which allows for varying combinations of cylinders to be cut off with the exhaust valves still open, significantly reducing pumping losses, increasing efficiency. And varying combinations of cylinder cuts would affect how "intense" the operation would be.
Doing this, reduces natural spark ignition engine braking, BUT, they could be using the MGU-K to compensate.

So let's think, if we assume skip fire (the "Honda noise") is to reduce pumping losses, there is a gain there in overall efficiency, what you do lose though is natural engine braking but this would allow the programming of the MGU-K, in full generation mode, to recover much more energy in slowing the engine down when off throttle or braking as it would not be competing with spark engine overrun resistance.. Ingenious.

Then add that to this new behaviour which has been prevalent since Spec 4 and the new Mobil fuel was brought in, it seems clear they are efficient enough ICE side to have excess fuel to play with and as such have introduced what is sounding like an antilag system by dumping fuel into the switched off cylinders while skip fire is active (the big bangs and pops). This would have two benefits:
1. Piston/Cylinder cooling from cool fuel injection
2. Causing backfires when it passes into the exhaust unburnt, keeping the turbo spooled without requiring electrical energy use from the MGU-H.

The negative to antilag is turbine damage, however this could be something HondaJet is assisting with on designing impellers that can withstand the shock damage and the sudden heat rise.
I thought these PUs would need interference valves in order to keep the compression ratio as high as possible.
Always find the gap then use it.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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JonoNic wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:28 am
GhostF1 wrote:
NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:20 pm
Well the rattattataattaa sound is the ICE firing only 3 cylinders under breaking. The deactivated cylinders could be pumping just air, cooling the turbocharger.

Also, the F2 cars are spitting real flames almost half of all their races. The turbo’s are much more durable and antilag more controlled nowadays.
Yeah I would agree, the "rattattatatata" noise definitely sounds like skip fire operation which allows for varying combinations of cylinders to be cut off with the exhaust valves still open, significantly reducing pumping losses, increasing efficiency. And varying combinations of cylinder cuts would affect how "intense" the operation would be.
Doing this, reduces natural spark ignition engine braking, BUT, they could be using the MGU-K to compensate.

So let's think, if we assume skip fire (the "Honda noise") is to reduce pumping losses, there is a gain there in overall efficiency, what you do lose though is natural engine braking but this would allow the programming of the MGU-K, in full generation mode, to recover much more energy in slowing the engine down when off throttle or braking as it would not be competing with spark engine overrun resistance.. Ingenious.

Then add that to this new behaviour which has been prevalent since Spec 4 and the new Mobil fuel was brought in, it seems clear they are efficient enough ICE side to have excess fuel to play with and as such have introduced what is sounding like an antilag system by dumping fuel into the switched off cylinders while skip fire is active (the big bangs and pops). This would have two benefits:
1. Piston/Cylinder cooling from cool fuel injection
2. Causing backfires when it passes into the exhaust unburnt, keeping the turbo spooled without requiring electrical energy use from the MGU-H.

The negative to antilag is turbine damage, however this could be something HondaJet is assisting with on designing impellers that can withstand the shock damage and the sudden heat rise.
I thought these PUs would need interference valves in order to keep the compression ratio as high as possible.
They more than likely would yes

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JonoNic
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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So how would they effectively keep the exhaust valves open if it has interference valves? Could they design it that the valves move differently during these pops and bangs?
Always find the gap then use it.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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JonoNic wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:11 am
So how would they effectively keep the exhaust valves open if it has interference valves? Could they design it that the valves move differently during these pops and bangs?
I probably worded that a bit rough. Variable Valve Timing systems are not permitted by the rules so by "having the valves open" I'm just implying the known, in that they run a normal cycle without combustion taking place.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:21 am
....the "rattattatatata" noise definitely sounds like skip fire operation which allows for varying combinations of cylinders to be cut off with the exhaust valves still open, significantly reducing pumping losses, increasing efficiency. And varying combinations of cylinder cuts would affect how "intense" the operation would be.
Doing this, reduces natural spark ignition engine braking, BUT, they could be using the MGU-K to compensate.
So let's think, if we assume skip fire (the "Honda noise") is to reduce pumping losses, there is a gain there in overall efficiency, what you do lose though is natural engine braking but this would allow the programming of the MGU-K, in full generation mode, to recover much more energy in slowing the engine down when off throttle or braking as it would not be competing with spark engine overrun resistance.. Ingenious.......
efficiency loss with throttling is far more than 'pumping loss'
because throttling reduces the peak temperature of the thermodynamic cycle and so reduces conversion of heat into work
yes both are alleviated by 'cylinder cutting'
(conventionally both in effect reduce motor size by rematching the motor/load relationship - this is the basis of driving)

with this supercharging pumping loss with throttling is trivial (the compressor work greatly reduces with throttling)
that's how WW2 was won

often when the ICE is at low powers it's driving the K into 'recovery'
further alleviating efficiency loss
this might supervene some more tradition-based views of effects within the ICE

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:51 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:21 am
....the "rattattatatata" noise definitely sounds like skip fire operation which allows for varying combinations of cylinders to be cut off with the exhaust valves still open, significantly reducing pumping losses, increasing efficiency. And varying combinations of cylinder cuts would affect how "intense" the operation would be.
Doing this, reduces natural spark ignition engine braking, BUT, they could be using the MGU-K to compensate.
So let's think, if we assume skip fire (the "Honda noise") is to reduce pumping losses, there is a gain there in overall efficiency, what you do lose though is natural engine braking but this would allow the programming of the MGU-K, in full generation mode, to recover much more energy in slowing the engine down when off throttle or braking as it would not be competing with spark engine overrun resistance.. Ingenious.......
efficiency loss with throttling is far more than 'pumping loss'
because throttling reduces the peak temperature of the thermodynamic cycle and so reduces conversion of heat into work
yes both are alleviated by 'cylinder cutting'
(conventionally both in effect reduce motor size by rematching the motor/load relationship - this is the basis of driving)

with this supercharging pumping loss with throttling is trivial (the compressor work greatly reduces with throttling)
that's how WW2 was won

often when the ICE is at low powers it's driving the K into 'recovery'
further alleviating efficiency loss
this might supervene some more tradition-based views of effects within the ICE
Indeed. Exactly why it was theorised earlier in this thread that Honda PU torque demand from the driver was controlled by various combinations of fired and skipped cycles which give a range from 0-100%. Skip fire can provide solid progressive torque control. This then leaves the "throttling" issues you mention as redundant.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:21 am
NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:20 pm
Well the rattattataattaa sound is the ICE firing only 3 cylinders under breaking. The deactivated cylinders could be pumping just air, cooling the turbocharger.

Also, the F2 cars are spitting real flames almost half of all their races. The turbo’s are much more durable and antilag more controlled nowadays.
Yeah I would agree, the "rattattatatata" noise definitely sounds like skip fire operation which allows for varying combinations of cylinders to be cut off with the exhaust valves still open, significantly reducing pumping losses, increasing efficiency. And varying combinations of cylinder cuts would affect how "intense" the operation would be.
Doing this, reduces natural spark ignition engine braking, BUT, they could be using the MGU-K to compensate.

So let's think, if we assume skip fire (the "Honda noise") is to reduce pumping losses, there is a gain there in overall efficiency, what you do lose though is natural engine braking but this would allow the programming of the MGU-K, in full generation mode, to recover much more energy in slowing the engine down when off throttle or braking as it would not be competing with spark engine overrun resistance.. Ingenious.

Then add that to this new behaviour which has been prevalent since Spec 4 and the new Mobil fuel was brought in, it seems clear they are efficient enough ICE side to have excess fuel to play with and as such have introduced what is sounding like an antilag system by dumping fuel into the switched off cylinders while skip fire is active (the big bangs and pops). This would have two benefits:
1. Piston/Cylinder cooling from cool fuel injection
2. Causing backfires when it passes into the exhaust unburnt, keeping the turbo spooled without requiring electrical energy use on the MGU-H to do so, the saved energy can then be stored for use by the MGU-K during maximum power modes.

The negative to antilag is turbine damage, however this could be something HondaJet is assisting with on designing impellers that can withstand the shock damage and the sudden heat rise.
Hmm. I think the skip fire the farting noises. The other cars have this farting noise too. The sort of noise you here when you turn over an engine without ignition. (take the spark plugs out and)
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Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just found this article related to the current discussion.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/test- ... o/4706019/

NL_Fer
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Revs84 wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:26 pm
Just found this article related to the current discussion.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/test- ... o/4706019/
They mention 2011 2012. Are they suggesting the afterburn is to assist the aero?

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:21 am
NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:20 pm
Well the rattattataattaa sound is the ICE firing only 3 cylinders under breaking. The deactivated cylinders could be pumping just air, cooling the turbocharger.

Also, the F2 cars are spitting real flames almost half of all their races. The turbo’s are much more durable and antilag more controlled nowadays.
Yeah I would agree, the "rattattatatata" noise definitely sounds like skip fire operation which allows for varying combinations of cylinders to be cut off with the exhaust valves still open, significantly reducing pumping losses, increasing efficiency. And varying combinations of cylinder cuts would affect how "intense" the operation would be.
Doing this, reduces natural spark ignition engine braking, BUT, they could be using the MGU-K to compensate.

So let's think, if we assume skip fire (the "Honda noise") is to reduce pumping losses, there is a gain there in overall efficiency, what you do lose though is natural engine braking but this would allow the programming of the MGU-K, in full generation mode, to recover much more energy in slowing the engine down when off throttle or braking as it would not be competing with spark engine overrun resistance.. Ingenious.

Then add that to this new behaviour which has been prevalent since Spec 4 and the new Mobil fuel was brought in, it seems clear they are efficient enough ICE side to have excess fuel to play with and as such have introduced what is sounding like an antilag system by dumping fuel into the switched off cylinders while skip fire is active (the big bangs and pops). This would have two benefits:
1. Piston/Cylinder cooling from cool fuel injection
2. Causing backfires when it passes into the exhaust unburnt, keeping the turbo spooled without requiring electrical energy use on the MGU-H to do so, the saved energy can then be stored for use by the MGU-K during maximum power modes.

The negative to antilag is turbine damage, however this could be something HondaJet is assisting with on designing impellers that can withstand the shock damage and the sudden heat rise.
What about using the anti lag to charge the MGU-H?
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap
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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:23 am
etusch wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:10 am
After @godlameroso's post I started to think these
During braking they can cease combusting in the cylinder and injecting fuel later than normal time to send fuel to exhaust and burn there. May be burning can start in exhaust stroke. I don't know. Hope someone come up with good explanation.
Sounds like Honda can afford to waste a lot of fuel while on track.
Actually etusch makes a good point.
If Honda were to burn fuel in the exhaust, it would be partially recovered by the turbine.
Unlike using the MGUK to harvest at part load, the MGUH energy recovery is not limited.

SS, the only waste is not using the maximum allowable fuel flow rate as much as possible.
Once the MGUK has harvested its 2MJ the only other mechanism to harvest at part load would be to burn fuel in the exhaust and carry on with MGUH recovery.
How much TQ does it make though?

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:39 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:21 am
NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:20 pm
Well the rattattataattaa sound is the ICE firing only 3 cylinders under breaking. The deactivated cylinders could be pumping just air, cooling the turbocharger.

Also, the F2 cars are spitting real flames almost half of all their races. The turbo’s are much more durable and antilag more controlled nowadays.
Yeah I would agree, the "rattattatatata" noise definitely sounds like skip fire operation which allows for varying combinations of cylinders to be cut off with the exhaust valves still open, significantly reducing pumping losses, increasing efficiency. And varying combinations of cylinder cuts would affect how "intense" the operation would be.
Doing this, reduces natural spark ignition engine braking, BUT, they could be using the MGU-K to compensate.

So let's think, if we assume skip fire (the "Honda noise") is to reduce pumping losses, there is a gain there in overall efficiency, what you do lose though is natural engine braking but this would allow the programming of the MGU-K, in full generation mode, to recover much more energy in slowing the engine down when off throttle or braking as it would not be competing with spark engine overrun resistance.. Ingenious.

Then add that to this new behaviour which has been prevalent since Spec 4 and the new Mobil fuel was brought in, it seems clear they are efficient enough ICE side to have excess fuel to play with and as such have introduced what is sounding like an antilag system by dumping fuel into the switched off cylinders while skip fire is active (the big bangs and pops). This would have two benefits:
1. Piston/Cylinder cooling from cool fuel injection
2. Causing backfires when it passes into the exhaust unburnt, keeping the turbo spooled without requiring electrical energy use on the MGU-H to do so, the saved energy can then be stored for use by the MGU-K during maximum power modes.

The negative to antilag is turbine damage, however this could be something HondaJet is assisting with on designing impellers that can withstand the shock damage and the sudden heat rise.
What about using the anti lag to charge the MGU-H?
Yeah for sure. Poor wording but it's what I was getting at with the bold sentence.