Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Revs84
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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:37 pm
Let's see how Hungaroring looks in regards to the power unit. Honda said they are focusing more on standard altitude performance. The only reason I can think of for them to specifically mention "low altitude performance" is because of an incoming tradeoff to high altitude performance (something Honda has been class of the field at). Could explain their harvesting disadvantages over last year if there turbo/ERS system is now a little compromised at high elevation tracks?
Someone on this forum recently questioned whether this was actually confirmed by Honda or something that was just mentioned on one of the threads. I believe I had read this somewhere else myself but couldn't find the source again so I started doubting myself. Would be great if you can share it if you have it.

What is weird to me is this; how do you go from having an 'advantage', as it was put, to having such a disadvantage? Wouldn't they look at a better balance?

Or is it possible that the main difference is down to Mercedes optimising their cooling this year, thus being able to run at higher power outputs. This was their main downfall in 2019 in high altitude circuits, so could it be that this is actually the main differentiator in power from last year?

Bill
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We know from Mercedes experience that were poor in high altitude tracks like Mexico ,Brazil Austria but pretty competitive in all others.

Revs84
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Bill wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:13 pm
We know from Mercedes experience that were poor in high altitude tracks like Mexico ,Brazil Austria but pretty competitive in all others.
Exactly. And we also know, as stated by themselves, that during the winter they focused a lot on cooling. Although it wasn't really hot in the Styrian GP, the high altitude factor was still there, but at no point was it mentioned that they suffered from cooling.

Something tells me that this could well be how there's suddenly such a gap. If truly Honda focused on low altitude (something we still need to verify again), this could have further compounded the change in power.

I'm very curious to see how things will pan out at Silverstone and even more at Monza and Spa, since they are all low altitude and power sensitive. I think that will give us some better answers.

Personally I'm really hoping Honda are just still being conservative and there's no real gap. As mentioned by them, they will only focus on power once the calendar is confirmed.

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Craigy
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Revs84 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:23 pm
I'm very curious to see how things will pan out at Silverstone and even more at Monza and Spa, since they are all low altitude and power sensitive. I think that will give us some better answers.
Some altitudes-
Interlagos: 2510ft
Redbull Ring: 2297ft
Spa-Francorchamps: 1355ft
Monza: 604ft
Silverstone: 512ft

The only really high altitude F1 track of recent years is Mexico at 7323ft.

People talk a lot about the altitude of the redbull ring without mentioning it's lower than Interlagos.

Bonus fun fact at the bottom of this post-
Baku: -92ft

timbo
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Jaisonas wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:01 am
Mansell89 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:49 am
Guys did we get any absolute clarity on whether Honda were affected in any way by the “Ferrari-gate” engine crackdown during the off season? (ie did Honda have any of those tricks that have been banned helping its renaissance these last couple of years?)
Wasnt it Redbull and Honda that specifically asked what to be checked and regulated? I dont think they would shoot themselves like that.
Maybe they planned to strike on a particular Ferrari technology, but the agreement Ferrari reached with FIA promoted much more thorough engine policing all across the field.

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HPD
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Revs84 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:09 pm
Someone on this forum recently questioned whether this was actually confirmed by Honda or something that was just mentioned on one of the threads. I believe I had read this somewhere else myself but couldn't find the source again so I started doubting myself. Would be great if you can share it if you have it.
https://www.kleinezeitung.at/sport/moto ... s-Erwachen
I don't have access to the article. But theoretically, Marko confirms that the high altitude advantage was lost. Possibly because Honda has a new Turbo

ispano6
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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:41 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:35 am
timbo wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:30 pm


I know it is impossible, that's why I'm puzzled. It did sound like cylinder cutting though. Maybe they cut ignition on part throttle?
This is known behaviour from Honda. Part throttle there is plenty of cylinder cutting going on. Wet conditions they probably make it more apparent.

As for throttle mapping. Max has already spoken highly of how tractable the throttle is with the Honda compared to the Renault. So I don't think the mapping is the issue.

Watching the onboard cams, power down looks fine. Renault and Fez powered cars have mor eissues coming out of 3 especially.

Interesting point to note... Before Lewis' last lap, Bono comes on the radio and says "for this last one, let's have magic on, switch magic to on", then watching, his power down out/traction out of corners was fantastic! Borderline insane for the conditions!
What magic was he referring to? I've only heard of "brake magic" which is supposedly merely a special brake bias setting. This is a very interesting radio call. Unfortunately the radio calls are not included on the YouTube video of his magical lap.
Perhaps Mercedes' DAS and magic diff(a form of traction control or possibly torque vectoring) are something that should be reconsidered as legal considering the advantage they enjoy. Racing Point likely has the magic diff too. It's possibly the component sensitive to the curbs and was used sparingly only to close gaps but advised not to use during close battles that necessitate using more of the tracks and curbs. Once the gap was closed, it was difficult to get by, and even Max was able take back the position in sector 2.

RedBull Honda need to respond with a better package for ERS and deployment as well as stronger endplates front and rear. Power delivery also needs to be modulated in my opinion. Turn 3 for Max was quite strange, drivetrain just sounded awful. The understeer that Max and Alex experience still is caused by the narrow front nose and cape concept that hasn't been balanced properly at the rear.

fellowhoodlums
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The altitude gain for Honda was about the speed of the Turbo.

Mercedes and Ferrari run at max allowed under regs. Honda normally run below that.

Consequently in thinner air conditions of altitude Honda are able to increase the turbo speed whereas Mercedes and Ferrari cannot

Revs84
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HPD wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:03 pm
Revs84 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:09 pm
Someone on this forum recently questioned whether this was actually confirmed by Honda or something that was just mentioned on one of the threads. I believe I had read this somewhere else myself but couldn't find the source again so I started doubting myself. Would be great if you can share it if you have it.
https://www.kleinezeitung.at/sport/moto ... s-Erwachen
I don't have access to the article. But theoretically, Marko confirms that the high altitude advantage was lost. Possibly because Honda has a new Turbo
Thanks for sharing this. In fact I do believe I had read actually that - that Honda introduced a new turbo. It was a couple of weeks ago I believe.

From this article:
We come to your personal sporting balance. Basically, Red Bull Racing was expecting more for the two home Grand Prix. You even spoke of the possibility of victory before the races.

Yeah right. But we were quite surprised by the engine performance of the Mercedes. Above all about their qualification performance. In the first race we were able to keep up halfway, but that was also ten degrees higher outside temperature. In the second race we had no chance at all. The Verstappen car had damage to the front wing and rear, so he couldn't hold the place against Bottas. We have to look at everything very carefully. And the paradox is that the advantage from the high altitude that we had is gone. It may be due to the fact that Honda is using a new turbo, but we have to wait for Budapest to assess the situation exactly. In the end you have to say: For us it was a hard awakening.

But Alex Albon had pretty good chances of winning in the first race?

Yes Yes sure. At the time of the collision with Hamilton, it was a bit faster.

Has the World Cup train already left?

No, definitely not. We analyze all of this once, see where we can start, where we can find improvements. We come to other routes, it can get better there.

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PlatinumZealot
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fellowhoodlums wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:21 am
ERS deficit as nicely explained in that article.

Unique to short tracks it seems. Issue not the actual deployment but the length of time it takes ERS to recharge the batteries. Therefore on short tracks, RBR have less charge to deploy each lap compared to the more efficient Merc.

Not sure about the MGU-K but isn’t the MGU-H always been a weakness with Honda? I recall many discussions about it over last couple of seasons.

Also, am I right in saying MGU-H is one part that can be developed this season by 1 iteration?
Mercedes ICE is stronger that's why. Thd ERS between the brands have very close efficiency. In 2017 Hondas ERS was up to par. What we saw is the stronger ICE of the mercedes pushing more air volume being able to charge the battery via the MGUH. They also have faster end of straight speeds... So their KERS would also get more energy to charge the battery. It's a real domino effect... But it all starts with getting more efficiency from the ICE.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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Wazari
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I apologize in advance that I am going to try and answer your PM's here rather than individually.

First, I am fine and I would like to thank all of you for asking and hope all of you are safe and healthy.

I am a little disappointed with this season. IMHO, Honda took a very conservative approach by using the "Spec 1.1" PU to open the season. I believe Spec 2 which is what I really wanted to see run this season with all the "goodies" would have been ready to go by this time. I realize that track time was severely hampered by what is going this season but again IMO would have liked to seen it run at Austria. Although I have not seen any numbers from race 2, after analyzing telemetry from race 1, I believe all 4 PU's are very close with regards to power and I don't buy this 35 HP gap between Mercedes and Renault nor the 20 HP gap with Honda. However, I think Mercedes has a very robust K unit this season.

One thing I did notice at testing in Barcelona was that the heavy ozone odor from Ferrari's exhaust was gone which was very prominent in the second half of last season.
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

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etusch
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Wazari san thank you for knowledge.
I wonder why bangs of Honda engine during braking is gone ? İs there affect of new fuel flow system on it ?

nzjrs
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Thanks Wazari!

epo
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Thanks Wazari, well at least the MGU-K can be changed, doubt they will as that's one token that can be used until 2021 so I guess they prefer to develop it as far as they can.
Too bad for spec 2, as reliability upgrades are still possible but I can understand they don't want to gamble.

Let's hope next races will fit the car and engine better.

Revs84
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epo wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:46 am
Thanks Wazari, well at least the MGU-K can be changed, doubt they will as that's one token that can be used until 2021 so I guess they prefer to develop it as far as they can.
Too bad for spec 2, as reliability upgrades are still possible but I can understand they don't want to gamble.

Let's hope next races will fit the car and engine better.
If I understand the new engine development regulations well, the tokens for the MGU-K, ES and CU are for this year. For 2021, they can still introduce new upgraded components at the beginning of the year, but will otherwise be frozen for the remainder of the year. On the other hand, for the ICE, TC and MGU-H, they will be able to introduce an update during the year in addition to the specs introduced at the beginning of 2021.

But I stand to be corrected :)