Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Could it be in relation to the (over) use of the 'Zoom' button? Maybe several convective dab's taking too much out or over heating a component? maybe a power transistor or voltage-current control exceeding its thermal and feinting.
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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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aran.vtec wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:24 am
Marti_EF3 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:12 am
But why is Max car the only one with the issues causing DNF, lost electrical power, etc? Maybe related to software about his particular driving style? Like deployment strategy, throttle, etc?
This is a really good point, Why only on Max's car (is his car built differently or different spec parts?) although Albons car was also a dog on the starts.

Then on the other side of the team SAT cars starts seem to be very impressive so has to be something on the RB side
Another question is why it is not during fp sessions but at race, so it contains a bit bad luck too.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:00 pm
aran.vtec wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:24 am
Marti_EF3 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:12 am
But why is Max car the only one with the issues causing DNF, lost electrical power, etc? Maybe related to software about his particular driving style? Like deployment strategy, throttle, etc?
This is a really good point, Why only on Max's car (is his car built differently or different spec parts?) although Albons car was also a dog on the starts.

Then on the other side of the team SAT cars starts seem to be very impressive so has to be something on the RB side
Another question is why it is not during fp sessions but at race, so it contains a bit bad luck too.
This has nothing to do with bad luck. Twice during a race in Italy. :wtf:
Magneti Marelli develops specific electronic systems and software for Formula One ( for example Ferrari, Alfa Romeo and Honda).
Some of their employees were busy with Max's car before the race started.
Is there something wrong somewhere and not in the Honda PU?

Jaisonas
Jaisonas
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I've posted this in the rb thread but i'll post it here as well. The car had issues well before the start of the race with the engine almost stalling on the clutch bite find and it sounded like it struggled to start as well.

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hmmm. If this is reported/translated correctly, this doesn't spell huge confidence. But still unusual it'd only Max plagued by it.

https://f1i.com/news/384364-honda-verst ... small.html

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Big Tea
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:31 pm
Hmmm. If this is reported/translated correctly, this doesn't spell huge confidence. But still unusual it'd only Max plagued by it.

https://f1i.com/news/384364-honda-verst ... small.html
It stresses in that article that Max can take another engine without a grid drop. I m sure a grid drop is preferable to a DNF, so I doubt they were expecting it to be that serious. Was Max not having work done behind his engine covers just before the grid, and smoke rising? More likely something that did not develop soon enough to change which ever unit was concerned rather than an engine, which I feel sure would have been changed if suspect.

As others,I look to electrical problems. (yes, I know there is a lot of electrics built into the engine :D )
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Sieper
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The “smoke” was from the dry ice that they use to cool components. Something is overheating and it happens on an outlap/standing still. Honda says it is a big issue and we have seen Verstappen now stalled at starts 3 starts in a row (Monza race start and Monza restart) and mugello race start. Albon has said he expected to fall back at starts too. I think they go for a less aggresive cooling solution on his car. With Max all out.

Honda says it is a big issue. I fear they might loose starting grunt to resolve this, or even overall pace. I am in between fear and hope they can solve it.
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mem
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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i don't think Max PU stalled at Mugello it started very well he almost overtook Hamilton but suddenly something disconnected. :roll:

nzjrs
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 3:49 pm
The “smoke” was from the dry ice that they use to cool components. Something is overheating and it happens on an outlap/standing still. Honda says it is a big issue and we have seen Verstappen now stalled at starts 3 starts in a row (Monza race start and Monza restart) and mugello race start. Albon has said he expected to fall back at starts too. I think they go for a less aggresive cooling solution on his car. With Max all out.

Honda says it is a big issue. I fear they might loose starting grunt to resolve this, or even overall pace. I am in between fear and hope they can solve it.
Fwiw I could read the quote "At the moment I cannot tell you if we could continue, or we had to retire. But the issue is not small. The impact was big. So, it was a very bad situation"

As

"This issue is not small (because) the impact was big" which is just taking responsibility for the consequences of failures.

I would be interested in hearing how the original japanese language version feels.

TNTHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Didn't they start races poorly last year as well (Austria '19 comes in mind)? After that Honda was busy optimizing their start mapping.

Couldn't it (beside cooling issues) be that with the single mode directive they have poor starts because of their (may be workaround) solution that is cut short? It was quite obvious that Albons restarts at Mugello were also suboptimal.

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The article about the issue being 'not small' came from The Race the morning.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/verstapp ... all-honda/

Interestingly, Wouter also mentioned Magneti Marelli. Not sure if it's a coincidence or it's because he read this article:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/68243/-y ... ties-.html

Original interview with van der Zande here:

https://www.telegraaf.nl/video/63090694 ... j-red-bull

Unfortunately I've no idea what he's saying since my Dutch is as good as my Chinese :)

What is sure is that it would be quite interesting to understand what Magneti Marelli were doing there and not Honda engineers.

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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TNTHead wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:30 pm
Didn't they start races poorly last year as well (Austria '19 comes in mind)? After that Honda was busy optimizing their start mapping.

Couldn't it (beside cooling issues) be that with the single mode directive they have poor starts because of their (may be workaround) solution that is cut short? It was quite obvious that Albons restarts at Mugello were also suboptimal.
The single mode directive applies to the race, not formation and reconnaissance. I don't think they are running an aggressive mode on the outlap to the grid.
According to Autosport
Teams will be allowed to run different engine modes for in and out-laps in qualifying where the power units need to harvest energy, and will also allow different modes for laps run under the safety car, the formation laps and the lap after the chequered flag.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Something Max is doing perhaps?

The battery should have sufficient charge going to grid. Depending on when the battery was charged the MGUK should have some amount temperature to it by the time it gets to the grid.

The coolant pumps should be running even at idle.
At lauch the MGUK radiator will have a bunch of cool air and the MGUK is not used/ at low output.. So the radiator should get time to cool down the coolant loop before the MGUK comes into play after 100kph or whatever. So i am saying here the MGUK should have been reasonably cool.

So why did hot conditions stop the MGUK if it is now assumed cool at the time of use? Likely, it is not the MGUK itself that was hot but maybe a control circuit?

Did Max do something during his practice launches? Did he press something too early on the real launch? Something to confuse the control circuits.
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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Still early days but here is an interview from https://www.as-web.jp/f1/624522?all
──パワーユニットのトラブル原因は?
q: What is the cause of the power unit trouble?

田辺TD:すでに日本でも調べ始めていますが、まだわかっていません。
a: Analysis has also already started in Japan, but we do not know yet.

──スタート前、フェルスタッペンはガレージを出たあたりから、「エンジンが止まりそう」と言っていました。具体的にトラブルが出たのはいつ頃だったのでしょうか。
q: At the start, from the moment Verstappen left the garage, he was saying "The engine is about to stop". Exactly when did the issue start occuring?

田辺TD:レーススタート直後ですね。グリッドに着く前のトラブルは、関係ないです。あの状況に陥る問題が発生したのは、スタート直後でした。より正確にはグリッドを離れて、フォーメーションラップに入ってからですね。
a: Right after the race start. The issue prior to arriving to the grid is not related. The problem resulting in that condition(lack of power) occurred after the race start. To be exact, it started after leaving the grid during the formation lap.

──リタイア後のTVインタビューでは、「モンツァのトラブルに似ている」と言っています。類似のトラブルだったのでしょうか。
q: After the retirement, it was said "It's similar to the issue in Monza". Does it resemble the same issue?

田辺TD:似たようなといえば、そうです。ただ原因としては、違うのではないかと思っています。エンジンが不調に陥ったという意味では、同じですが。
a: You can say that the issues look similar, yes. However as to the cause, I believe it to be different. Though it doesn't change the fact there was an engine issue.

──アクシデント直前のフェルスタッペン車を捉えた車載映像では、ERSのチャージを示すテールランプがつき始めていたように見えました。
q: Prior to Verstappen's accident from watching onboard cameras, the ERS charge lamp appeared to come on.

田辺TD:それは関係ないと思います。パワーユニットトラブルとの関連性はないですね。
a: I believe that is not related. It is not related to the power unit trouble.

──1コーナーまでの失速とは、関係ない?
q: It's not related to the lack of power up to turn 1?
田辺TD:ないですね。
a: No it is not.

──もし追突されてリタイアしていなかったとしても、チェッカーまで走り切れなかった可能性が高いですか?
q: If the collision leading to retirement hadn't happened, would it have been possible to run to the checker flag?

田辺TD:調査中なので、なんとも言えません。
a: We are currently investigating, so I don't have anything to say.

──パワーユニットにダメージが出ているかどうかも、わからない?
q: Do you know if there was damage to the power unit?

田辺TD:わからないですね。
a: I don't know.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Revs84 wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:37 pm
Interestingly, Wouter also mentioned Magneti Marelli. Not sure if it's a coincidence or it's because he read this article:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/68243/-y ... ties-.html

What is sure is that it would be quite interesting to understand what Magneti Marelli were doing there and not Honda engineers.
It was pure a coincidence. I didn't read GPBlog.

I heard Magneti Marelli supplies among other things the sensors and / or the software, so I assume they should check first if something is wrong, and then the Honda people, but I don't know.