Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
PlatinumZealot
474
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Shake my head as they would say...

When we have some technical information on this material and process it will be fun to discuss. Though I doubt much will be forthcoming because the liner material and treatment is highly sensitive information. In that case it is just forum speculation and it is fair game for assumptions and criticsm.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
474
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

ispano6 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:38 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:19 pm
But anyway, thanks Ispano for your efforts in giving us this info. Always a treat to get a little more inside info or for you giving us your time to translate :)
GhostF1 you correctly stated that ceramics was never once mentioned in the article. For the benefit of others here I'll mention there are several more pages from both Sept(RA620H special Part 1: ICE) and Oct(RA620H special Part 2:MGUH+Energy Management) that go into great detail as to why Honda went this route, the events that led up to it, what their learnings were, new issues that arose after reaching certain milestones, how it has allowed them to cope with regulation changes such as reduction in oil use and oil loss, high power mode, and sustained average peak power. Honda was already working with this company with the motorcycle division(and others too) and while the motto was "All Honda" this company worked with Honda to create the new plating at the factory Honda Giken Kougyou, Kumamoto Seisakusho. It's evident Kumasei-mekki(Bear Plating) is the pride of Kumamoto and Japan and they have their own mascot cheerleader in Kumamon the Bear. Even Tamiya pays tribute with their Kumamon RC cars and mini-4wd cars.

Some here will say it's the same thing that others are doing etc. Honda went with K-Plating and worked together to create something specifically for the RA620H.
...the FIA banned the use of exotic materials in engine construction, and only aluminum and iron alloys were allowed for the pistons, cylinders, connecting rods, and crankshafts...
Anodizing involves dipping the prototype, part or component into a 30 degree bath of sulfuric acid and powdered aluminum. The concoction is electrified with less than 100 volts of DC current, which picks up oxygen and transforms the part’s exterior into aluminum oxide.

Ceramic coating, which is often referred to as micro-arc oxidation (MAO), involves dipping the part or component into an alkaline bath with a pH balance between eight and twelve. This yields AC currents that create oxygen-producing micro plasma that attach to the part’s exterior surface. (From Mercedes: Twin-wire arc spraying (TWAS) is used to apply an extremely thin coating based on an iron-carbon alloy)

Anodizing produces surfaces that are much harder than even heat-treated steel. It’s a tough outer coating that provides aluminum and aluminum alloy prototypes with corrosion-, abrasion- and wear-resistant protection that can be colored with organic dyes or metallic pigments.

Ceramic coating results in a finish that’s strong and capable of protecting aluminum and aluminum alloy parts. However, it differs from anodizing in that it typically cannot be colored with organic dyes or metallic pigments.

Anodizing requires the use of sophisticated, state-of-the-art equipment. A prototype manufacturing service that finishes aluminum prototypes with selective anodizing typically takes extensive steps to ensure that the process is done with absolute precision in a safe manner, both for the expert technicians and the environment.

Finishing products with micro-arc oxidation typically doesn’t require the same level of precision, which means companies that offer this type of coating might not make the same level of investment in state-of-the-art machinery or expert technicians as those that offer anodizing.
Hate to burst your bubble Ispano...

Lol

Some Liner cermaic particles ARE aluminum oxide. It can be applied in a number of ways.
The "Chrom Keramic" Material is aluminum oxide impregnated in the chrome.

You shoot yourself in the foot.

The source if information for this new material is Japanese. You are Japanese you have unorecedented access. So no need to rush. I call for patience. Patience till you get specific information on this material. No guesswork and waffling. Once you have the info we can discuss. No pressure.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

ispano6
ispano6
244
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:54 pm
Does the article specifically mention anodised aluminium ?
That's hardly something that can take skirt and ring loads.. you normally see that in low load sliding seals and such..
It is a new material created in partnership with Honda.

From the company website:
With our self-developed surface processing techniques and high-precision micron plating technology, we can handle various customer requests

Main products (one of): Alumite (anode oxidation)
Expertise: Electrostatic Breakdown Prevention

User avatar
Mudflap
308
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

ispano6 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:01 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:54 pm
Does the article specifically mention anodised aluminium ?
That's hardly something that can take skirt and ring loads.. you normally see that in low load sliding seals and such..
It is a new material created in partnership with Honda.

From the company website:
With our self-developed surface processing techniques and high-precision micron plating technology, we can handle various customer requests

Main products (one of): Alumite (anode oxidation)
Expertise: Electrostatic Breakdown Prevention
Is this what the article says they use or speculations ?
nah pop no style

ispano6
ispano6
244
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:47 pm
Is this what the article says they use or speculations ?
Kakuda Tetsushi says this is the technology they use, the company they use, the company website says that is what they specialize in. It is called Kumamoto Plating. I am speculating they are using a similar material to what the company's expertise is in. Honda says it's a new material. I never said it is a specific material, only that it is a new material made in partnership with Honda. Do you have a problem with that?

gruntguru
gruntguru
465
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:55 pm
Hate to burst your bubble Ispano...

Lol

Some Liner cermaic particles ARE aluminum oxide. It can be applied in a number of ways.
The "Chrom Keramic" Material is aluminum oxide impregnated in the chrome.

You shoot yourself in the foot.

The source if information for this new material is Japanese. You are Japanese you have unorecedented access. So no need to rush. I call for patience. Patience till you get specific information on this material. No guesswork and waffling. Once you have the info we can discuss. No pressure.
So are you the only one on the forum that is authorised to make guesses?
.
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:05 am
My guess is some sort of chrome ceramic coating. A hard chrome coating that has cracks filled with ceramic materials. Can you confirm if it for the rings or the liner?
je suis charlie

User avatar
Mudflap
308
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

ispano6 wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:38 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:47 pm
Is this what the article says they use or speculations ?
Kakuda Tetsushi says this is the technology they use, the company they use, the company website says that is what they specialize in. It is called Kumamoto Plating. I am speculating they are using a similar material to what the company's expertise is in. Honda says it's a new material. I never said it is a specific material, only that it is a new material made in partnership with Honda. Do you have a problem with that?
Re-reading your original translation the only reference I can find is for chrome. Hard chrome bore coatings have been used in racing engines for a long time so it is plausible they have made an improvement on this.

I find it extremey difficult to believe they use a form of hard anodizing which would be completely unsuitable in such applications. Typically hard chrome platings are in the range of 67 HRC while hard anodized aluminium is about half that!

I have no issue with you speculating, just make it clear when you do so otherwise it might be misinterpreted as actual translation which is very confusing.

By the way DLC would be even better since it can achieve over 90 HRC and much better tribological properties but has very poor adhesion to parent aluminium bores.
nah pop no style

User avatar
Wouter
398
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

TOYOHARU TANABE
TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, HONDA F1

After the last triple header, we now start a period of races with the more usual two week break in between.
Using the time since Mugello, our priority has been to carefully analyse the reason for Max’s retirement in that race.
Our investigation revealed that several factors caused the problem and we have been able to apply countermeasures to deal with each of these, with the aim of ensuring the fault does not happen again.

............
............

User avatar
_cerber1
149
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:50 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post


User avatar
etusch
149
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

No update this year
Masashi Yamamoto of Honda thinks they have the second most powerful engine in Formula 1.

Ferrari was the team with the strongest engine last year, but after technical directives, Mercedes is on the top again.

The German team has done better on the straights this year than any other engine manufacturer. Also, Renault was one of the manufacturers that again seemed strong.

Everyone admits that Mercedes is at the top right now.

But Honda's F1 boss Masashi Yamamoto thinks the Japanese manufacturer is now the second most powerful engine manufacturer.

Yamamoto said: "If we talk about pure power, I think at the moment the most powerful engine is Mercedes. Then comes Honda, Renault is third and Ferrari is behind.

"Unfortunately I cannot give all the details about the difference between Honda and Mercedes, but they are ahead of us."

"Yet when we look at the data, we can see that we are close to them."

Yamamoto also underlined that they will not have any updates this year.

"This year, we cannot bring the updates we prepared as easily as last year. We will continue to use the current version until the end of the season.
"

https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/yamam ... n=widget-1
g..gle translate

ispano6
ispano6
244
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:34 am


Re-reading your original translation the only reference I can find is for chrome. Hard chrome bore coatings have been used in racing engines for a long time so it is plausible they have made an improvement on this.

I find it extremey difficult to believe they use a form of hard anodizing which would be completely unsuitable in such applications. Typically hard chrome platings are in the range of 67 HRC while hard anodized aluminium is about half that!

I have no issue with you speculating, just make it clear when you do so otherwise it might be misinterpreted as actual translation which is very confusing.

By the way DLC would be even better since it can achieve over 90 HRC and much better tribological properties but has very poor adhesion to parent aluminium bores.
I don't claim to know what material make up it is. I don't claim that k plating is alumite, nickel or chromate. I only bring to light what the specialty of the company is known for, which is a method that is not arc-spray or twas. I bring to light that there is other technology than ceramic coating that has been proven to be stronger. It's used for spacecraft and other high tech applications. It happens to be anodic oxide process, which is the area of technology that Kumamoto is respected for. I don't know if nickel or chromium is considered an exotic material but we do know titanium is banned from being used in the cylinder bore. What I do know is that aluminum isn't banned, and that Honda will invest in high tech applications that require utmost precision and quality. No mediocrity since the engines will be locked in. You don't have to believe anything written in the article, it isn't titled "Birth of the Honda PU:Secret Story" for no reason. The article puts emphasis on the word "kumasei-mekki" with quotes to allude to the nickname they have given this proprietary material. Some people in Japan will say mekki translates to chrome, but the article puts an intentional emphasis with quotes. On the Japanese website for the company they make a distinction in saying Alumite process is not mekki, and that there are diffences in the two. That is why I never said it is Alumite. What I would guess is that Honda would go with the lightest material possible that is allowed, and that is Aluminum.

I haven't done anything to shoot myself in the foot like the zealot on my ignore list purports, he's just making himself look bad. I would suggest for your sake that you avoid the route he's taken.

If you guys are so hell bent on finding out the secret sauce you guys go do the research and go to the company and sign up for a factory tour. I don't owe any information to any of you.

User avatar
godlameroso
423
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I appreciate you bringing us this information Ispano, ignore the haters, they're just mad fanboys who wish Mercedes were as forthcoming as Honda is.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
474
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:59 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:55 pm
Hate to burst your bubble Ispano...

Lol

Some Liner cermaic particles ARE aluminum oxide. It can be applied in a number of ways.
The "Chrom Keramic" Material is aluminum oxide impregnated in the chrome.

You shoot yourself in the foot.

The source if information for this new material is Japanese. You are Japanese you have unorecedented access. So no need to rush. I call for patience. Patience till you get specific information on this material. No guesswork and waffling. Once you have the info we can discuss. No pressure.
So are you the only one on the forum that is authorised to make guesses?
.
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:05 am
My guess is some sort of chrome ceramic coating. A hard chrome coating that has cracks filled with ceramic materials. Can you confirm if it for the rings or the liner?
Read the post chain before mine.

User avatar
Sieper
110
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Can the bitching / egotripping please stop. This should be about the Honda PU. I don’t want to read That stupid childish stuff. Stop it.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

User avatar
etusch
149
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Sieper wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:37 pm
Can the bitching / egotripping please stop. This should be about the Honda PU. I don’t want to read That stupid childish stuff. Stop it.
+1