Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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If Honda has found a way to make very strong cylinder liners and this was their first iteration, then there is incredible development potential for next year. This means they can further bump the compression ratio easily, improve the block architecture. I can see why Wazari was dissapointed that they did not start the season with a more updated power unit, as this is what Honda must run for the rest of the year. Of course this is just speculation as we do not know exactly the details regarding the cylinder liner, if it's much stronger than any other process, or just more precise in execution.
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GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... n=widget-6

Just as confirmation. The issue is confirmed to be something to do with the control electronics and software and they've taken measures to avoid that happening again. No physical engine components are involved (ICE, Turbo, MGU-H, MGU-K) and are all undamaged and have re-entered the pool.

Honda are introducing new components into the pool this weekend as per their original plan at the start of the season, unrelated to the issues Max has experienced.

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Marti_EF3
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The 2nd PU have little usage, so maybe they are able to run a bit more higher than usual... Curious to see if they've solved the torque issues they have on the starts sometimes

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:34 am
No update this year
Masashi Yamamoto of Honda thinks they have the second most powerful engine in Formula 1.

Ferrari was the team with the strongest engine last year, but after technical directives, Mercedes is on the top again.

The German team has done better on the straights this year than any other engine manufacturer. Also, Renault was one of the manufacturers that again seemed strong.

Everyone admits that Mercedes is at the top right now.

But Honda's F1 boss Masashi Yamamoto thinks the Japanese manufacturer is now the second most powerful engine manufacturer.

Yamamoto said: "If we talk about pure power, I think at the moment the most powerful engine is Mercedes. Then comes Honda, Renault is third and Ferrari is behind.

"Unfortunately I cannot give all the details about the difference between Honda and Mercedes, but they are ahead of us."

"Yet when we look at the data, we can see that we are close to them."

Yamamoto also underlined that they will not have any updates this year.

"This year, we cannot bring the updates we prepared as easily as last year. We will continue to use the current version until the end of the season.
"

https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/yamam ... n=widget-1
g..gle translate
It's been pretty clear for some time now that this has been the pecking order. In race it has been especially obvious. There's a few people in the Renault engine thread convinced the French PU is very clear of the Honda (no evidence provided though) and I'm guessing that was spurred on from the Renault team looking strong on the straights at Spa (nothing to do with them running the lowest downforce on the field of course :roll: ), frankly the Alpha Tauri's have been top 6 in speed traps pretty much every race, not reliant on low DF tracks if we want to just look at that data (which is largely irrelevant anyway in the big picture anyway).

Honda's strong suit has always been their in season development and they had a big plan to bring updates this year, so it's a right shame they can't bring anything to the track. 2021 COULD be exciting PU wise.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:06 am


It's been pretty clear for some time now that this has been the pecking order. In race it has been especially obvious. There's a few people in the Renault engine thread convinced the French PU is very clear of the Honda (no evidence provided though) and I'm guessing that was spurred on from the Renault team looking strong on the straights at Spa (nothing to do with them running the lowest downforce on the field of course :roll: ), frankly the Alpha Tauri's have been top 6 in speed traps pretty much every race, not reliant on low DF tracks if we want to just look at that data (which is largely irrelevant anyway in the big picture anyway).

Honda's strong suit has always been their in season development and they had a big plan to bring updates this year, so it's a right shame they can't bring anything to the track. 2021 COULD be exciting PU wise.
We are generally looking top speed data to say which pu has more power. Maybe Honda pu is not good at top speed but doing better at other part of its job. F1 is not a top speed racing. Of course it is not bad to have a good top speed.
Renault can not overtake AT at hungary straights with drs, they even cannot close because short straights and McLaren can not overtake AT at monza but they could close. There is not big difference between pu, it seems. Maybe mercedes has only bigger difference compared to others. I hope it is not that big and Honda can say we have best Pu out there in close future.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:15 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:06 am


It's been pretty clear for some time now that this has been the pecking order. In race it has been especially obvious. There's a few people in the Renault engine thread convinced the French PU is very clear of the Honda (no evidence provided though) and I'm guessing that was spurred on from the Renault team looking strong on the straights at Spa (nothing to do with them running the lowest downforce on the field of course :roll: ), frankly the Alpha Tauri's have been top 6 in speed traps pretty much every race, not reliant on low DF tracks if we want to just look at that data (which is largely irrelevant anyway in the big picture anyway).

Honda's strong suit has always been their in season development and they had a big plan to bring updates this year, so it's a right shame they can't bring anything to the track. 2021 COULD be exciting PU wise.
We are generally looking top speed data to say which pu has more power. Maybe Honda pu is not good at top speed but doing better at other part of its job. F1 is not a top speed racing. Of course it is not bad to have a good top speed.
Renault can not overtake AT at hungary straights with drs, they even cannot close because short straights and McLaren can not overtake AT at monza but they could close. There is not big difference between pu, it seems. Maybe mercedes has only bigger difference compared to others. I hope it is not that big and Honda can say we have best Pu out there in close future.
Yeah, Monza honestly was a case of Gasly spending his tyres early to make use of the clear air he had while leading to make a gap, they were long dead towards the end. And we know the McLaren is a better car at the moment than the AT and Renault in the corners. The fact it took Sainz over 30 laps to get within DRS of Gasly and that Gasly had greater speed trap figures after the restart when DRS wasn't used and no tow wa sbeing used, is evidence enough I think.

PU differences are small between Honda and Renault.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Interestingly Honda does not reveal the type of failure on the engines in the last races. At least not to English readers.

Until someone in the paddock, maybe Ted or Karun weasles out some information the only key-word so far is that there was "Fault."

Normally the word "Fault" is used in electrical systems. It is close to what some persons suspected. But we will see.
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velizare
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:09 pm
Interestingly Honda does not reveal the type of failure on the engines in the last races. At least not to English readers.

Until someone in the paddock, maybe Ted or Karun weasles out some information the only key-word so far is that there was "Fault."

Normally the word "Fault" is used in electrical systems. It is close to what some persons suspected. But we will see.
since those people (chandhok & co) have zero or less QA background, I'd better avoid analyzing their words one-by-one about bugs, flaws, faults, failures, defects and incidents.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Verstappen spoke to Honda: "I thought that was important"
"After the problems in Monza and Mugello it was good to get a new engine and just start from scratch. They were really able to simulate what went wrong. They say they solved that. Of course I am happy with that. The problems were different from those in Monza and those had already been solved".

In the meantime, Verstappen has had a few good conversations. "I spoke with Christian and Helmut, but also with Honda. Because of course it is always better to hear it from the people themselves instead of viavia. That was important to me", said the Red Bull driver at Ziggo Sport.
Max is Honda's hero and also its best critic. Good luck to both this weekend.

Mahurora
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I guess it has been overshadowed by the crash in the openning lap and Lewis' penalty today but it was awseome to see that drag race between Norris and Albon after the SC.

It was on lap 6, Albon got his exit out of turn 10 wrong which lead to getting past by Norris who had a much cleaner turn around the corner thus much faster exit speed. Then suddenly the Redbull accelerating like 80's turbo Honda and catching up and getting ahead by turn 13. Unfortunately Albon was on the outside so he got past once more but I guess Yamamoto wasn't talking out of nothing concerning his recent claims.
Last edited by Mahurora on Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Revs84
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Doesn't give much more insight to the issue than we already know, however, it's mentioned that Honda requested some change/s to the RB16 body. Packaging maybe?

It also seems like Honda did a thorough investigation of the issue to ensure that it doesn't happen again.

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/smart/c ... /index.php

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Rushu
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mahurora wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:02 pm
I guess it has been overshadowed by the crash in the openning lap and Lewis' penalty today but it was awseome to see that drag race between Norris and Albon after the SC.

It was on lap 6, Albon got his exit out of turn 10 wrong which lead to getting past by Norris who had a much cleaner turn around the corner thus much faster exit speed. Then suddenly the Redbull accelerating like 80's turbo Honda and catching up and getting ahead by turn 13. Unfortunately Albon was on the outside so he got past once more but I guess Yamamoto wasn't talking out of nothing concerning his recent claims.

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_cerber1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mahurora wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:02 pm
I guess it has been overshadowed by the crash in the openning lap and Lewis' penalty today but it was awseome to see that drag race between Norris and Albon after the SC.

It was on lap 6, Albon got his exit out of turn 10 wrong which lead to getting past by Norris who had a much cleaner turn around the corner thus much faster exit speed. Then suddenly the Redbull accelerating like 80's turbo Honda and catching up and getting ahead by turn 13. Unfortunately Albon was on the outside so he got past once more but I guess Yamamoto wasn't talking out of nothing concerning his recent claims.
In fact, McLaren in Sochi was at the bottom of the top speed rankings. They clearly relied on turns, sacrificing speed on the straights, so that the comparison is not correct. In general, I do not understand people who judge the power of the motor, by the speed on the straight lines, there are several dozen factors that can affect this.

Look at the Ocon-Kvyat duel? Kvyat had a softer line-up, 12 laps younger, slipstream and DRS, but he could not overtake Renault. Under these conditions, having a more powerful motor, overtaking becomes easy.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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_cerber1 wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:55 am
Mahurora wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:02 pm
I guess it has been overshadowed by the crash in the openning lap and Lewis' penalty today but it was awseome to see that drag race between Norris and Albon after the SC.

It was on lap 6, Albon got his exit out of turn 10 wrong which lead to getting past by Norris who had a much cleaner turn around the corner thus much faster exit speed. Then suddenly the Redbull accelerating like 80's turbo Honda and catching up and getting ahead by turn 13. Unfortunately Albon was on the outside so he got past once more but I guess Yamamoto wasn't talking out of nothing concerning his recent claims.
In fact, McLaren in Sochi was at the bottom of the top speed rankings. They clearly relied on turns, sacrificing speed on the straights, so that the comparison is not correct. In general, I do not understand people who judge the power of the motor, by the speed on the straight lines, there are several dozen factors that can affect this.

Look at the Ocon-Kvyat duel? Kvyat had a softer line-up, 12 laps younger, slipstream and DRS, but he could not overtake Renault. Under these conditions, having a more powerful motor, overtaking becomes easy.
I guess Renault uses mgu-k at straights more harder than Honda. At start both Renault put pressure on max and ricci ovetook him but later that they were slower.
In the other hand last sector is also important. If front runner makes gap there you can only close it at straights but can not overtake. This is like AT did at monza vs McLaren.

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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:36 am
I guess Renault uses mgu-k at straights more harder than Honda. At start both Renault put pressure on max and ricci ovetook him but later that they were slower.
In the other hand last sector is also important. If front runner makes gap there you can only close it at straights but can not overtake. This is like AT did at monza vs McLaren.
Renault benefitted from softer tires and the tailwind.