Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[diffuser]

Isn't mapping just software? So it can "teleport" in as long as it takes to send an email.

Yes, it should be a simple download to the ECU. I don't know how big the files are for their ECUs, but the experience I've had with Hondas and Subarus, they are pretty small.

Yep sure they'll be coding right till Sunday.

[glenntws]

Bringing a complete power unit map from the dyno in Sakura into the ECU of the car shouldn't take make than 4 minutes, maybe even less if Internet is good Flashing these Things is fast and even if a PU Software indeed needs much more maps and lines of code (at least that's what I think), it's still super fast.

ECU Software is indeed a core element, while you have the ECU, you don't have "classic" maps which are changed and done. I'm sure, the Honda PU has at least 6-7 different maps (2 or 3 dimensional), if not even more, to control every aspect because everything has to work. They also have to code all the algorithms for switching valves and so on. It's like a car-ECU-remapping but 100000x more complex

In the 2 weeks of time left to bring a new engine to melbourne, they could still put it new pistons, rods, or maybe even a whole cylinder head. For these Things you could calculate a manufacturing time of maybe 2-5 days, everything is build together in one day and the rest is breaking in for maybe one or two days, then it can be shipped.

Honda has the ressources to do things this fast (like every other PU manufacturer). If they have a CAD-file ready, which is safe to go, the time to track is low. The only thing is, that the parts wouldn't be tested well.

All in all: If Honda wants to bring a new part to the engine, the 2-3 weeks time from creating/modifying the part to a engine at track is much lower than you may expect

[GoranF1]

Bringing a complete power unit map from the dyno in Sakura into the ECU of the car shouldn't take make than 4 minutes, maybe even less if Internet is good Flashing these Things is fast and even if a PU Software indeed needs much more maps and lines of code (at least that's what I think), it's still super fast.

ECU Software is indeed a core element, while you have the ECU, you don't have "classic" maps which are changed and done. I'm sure, the Honda PU has at least 6-7 different maps (2 or 3 dimensional), if not even more, to control every aspect because everything has to work. They also have to code all the algorithms for switching valves and so on. It's like a car-ECU-remapping but 100000x more complex

In the 2 weeks of time left to bring a new engine to melbourne, they could still put it new pistons, rods, or maybe even a whole cylinder head. For these Things you could calculate a manufacturing time of maybe 2-5 days, everything is build together in one day and the rest is breaking in for maybe one or two days, then it can be shipped.

Honda has the ressources to do things this fast (like every other PU manufacturer). If they have a CAD-file ready, which is safe to go, the time to track is low. The only thing is, that the parts wouldn't be tested well.

All in all: If Honda wants to bring a new part to the engine, the 2-3 weeks time from creating/modifying the part to a engine at track is much lower than you may expect

Honda PU will feature a pre-planed update in AUS i am being told.

[Craigy]

It's not amazingly ontopic but as people are discussing how long it'd take to move the map from one place to another, I thought I'd chip in.

Tata commuications sets up a minimum of a 1gbit/s link for each circuit, to cope with video and other data transfers from the track to the UK bases of the teams; McLaren and Mercedes both use this link for their own telemetry and so on. I suspect it's used from base to track for things like maps and team-specific audio/video things, to allow engineers to communicate with each other.

Here's a story about the comms setup from the end of 2015: https://arstechnica.co.uk/cars/2015/11/ ... -its-cars/
I hope people find it informative.

Edited to add - no sooner had I written that than I found a more up to date article talking about McLaren's partnership with NTT for communications: http://www.computerweekly.com/news/4502 ... oundations

[taperoo2k]

From what I remember the ECU has upto 1gb in storage (last time I looked), so the maps will likely not be that big in terms of file sizes. I'd guess the longest part of the process would be encryption and decryption, you'd be a fool to send sensitive files over the internet that's not in an encrypted form to protect it from prying eyes and hackers intent on mischief.

I think it sounds like Honda has a good handle on what the problems are with the PU, just not confident they have worked out the correct solutions to those problems.

[glenntws]

From what I remember the ECU has upto 1gb in storage (last time I looked), so the maps will likely not be that big in terms of file sizes. I'd guess the longest part of the process would be encryption and decryption, you'd be a fool to send sensitive files over the internet that's not in an encrypted form to protect it from prying eyes and hackers intent on mischief.

I think it sounds like Honda has a good handle on what the problems are with the PU, just not confident they have worked out the correct solutions to those problems.

1GB?? Do they save a movie beside the Software? I'm expecting something like 20-50mb max. for ECU, but honestly even less. Encryption should take that long. Make a safe end-to-end connection and send over all the things. easy.

[Craigy]

From what I remember the ECU has upto 1gb in storage (last time I looked), so the maps will likely not be that big in terms of file sizes. I'd guess the longest part of the process would be encryption and decryption, you'd be a fool to send sensitive files over the internet that's not in an encrypted form to protect it from prying eyes and hackers intent on mischief.

I think it sounds like Honda has a good handle on what the problems are with the PU, just not confident they have worked out the correct solutions to those problems.

The TAG320 (F1 standard) has 8GB of flash, but this includes the datalogging space.
Link to the product page: http://www.mclaren.com/appliedtechnolog ... t-tag-320/

[taperoo2k]

From what I remember the ECU has upto 1gb in storage (last time I looked), so the maps will likely not be that big in terms of file sizes. I'd guess the longest part of the process would be encryption and decryption, you'd be a fool to send sensitive files over the internet that's not in an encrypted form to protect it from prying eyes and hackers intent on mischief.

I think it sounds like Honda has a good handle on what the problems are with the PU, just not confident they have worked out the correct solutions to those problems.

1GB?? Do they save a movie beside the Software? I'm expecting something like 20-50mb max. for ECU, but honestly even less. Encryption should take that long. Make a safe end-to-end connection and send over all the things. easy.

This is off topic, but suffice to say the ECU requires that kind of storage for data logging amongst other things. This is the system McLaren developed on the data acquisition side of the ECU http://www.mclaren.com/appliedtechnolog ... tem/atlas/

I would suspect the software maps for the PU and other functions, won't be that big.

[dren]

I would suspect teams are streaming their data back to their command bases and logging it there. I wonder if those large memory banks are even used now? Is the ECU data logging and learning and changing in real time?

[Craigy]

I would suspect teams are streaming their data back to their command bases and logging it there. I wonder if those large memory banks are even used now? Is the ECU data logging and learning and changing in real time?

I would be surprised if it's not logged to both places. Getting a reliable fixed link from the bunker to the racetrack isn't all that difficult.

Getting a reliable link from the racecar to the pit wall is actually very hard.

[Singabule]

Bringing a complete power unit map from the dyno in Sakura into the ECU of the car shouldn't take make than 4 minutes, maybe even less if Internet is good Flashing these Things is fast and even if a PU Software indeed needs much more maps and lines of code (at least that's what I think), it's still super fast.

ECU Software is indeed a core element, while you have the ECU, you don't have "classic" maps which are changed and done. I'm sure, the Honda PU has at least 6-7 different maps (2 or 3 dimensional), if not even more, to control every aspect because everything has to work. They also have to code all the algorithms for switching valves and so on. It's like a car-ECU-remapping but 100000x more complex

In the 2 weeks of time left to bring a new engine to melbourne, they could still put it new pistons, rods, or maybe even a whole cylinder head. For these Things you could calculate a manufacturing time of maybe 2-5 days, everything is build together in one day and the rest is breaking in for maybe one or two days, then it can be shipped.

Honda has the ressources to do things this fast (like every other PU manufacturer). If they have a CAD-file ready, which is safe to go, the time to track is low. The only thing is, that the parts wouldn't be tested well.

All in all: If Honda wants to bring a new part to the engine, the 2-3 weeks time from creating/modifying the part to a engine at track is much lower than you may expect

Hmmm.... Untested? Again? Surely?

[PlatinumZealot]

Motorsport.com

As well as focusing on the cause of its reliability dramas in testing, Honda has spent considerable focus on improving its engine mapping for the start of the season.
It is understood that problems with the mapping were the root cause of the vibrations that led to some of the issues in Barcelona testing.
Honda’s F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has said that progress has been made with mapping plus in other unspecified areas.

Positive news.

Translation:
Some numpty mixed up the ignition cables.



On the ECU mapping update just before the race.. I don't think Honda would send such sensitive data over email, no matter how secure the connection is claimed to be. I can't see it.

[taperoo2k]

Motorsport.com

As well as focusing on the cause of its reliability dramas in testing, Honda has spent considerable focus on improving its engine mapping for the start of the season.
It is understood that problems with the mapping were the root cause of the vibrations that led to some of the issues in Barcelona testing.
Honda’s F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has said that progress has been made with mapping plus in other unspecified areas.

Positive news.

Translation:
Some numpty mixed up the ignition cables.



On the ECU mapping update just before the race.. I don't think Honda would send such sensitive data over email, no matter how secure the connection is claimed to be. I can't see it.

Well it could be that or it might just be whoever coded the PU maps made a coding error and nobody picked up on it until testing (a bit like Sony's poorly programmed random number generator, no one at Sony noticed the error until hackers got wind of it, end result ? PS3 Master Key easily accessible).

Honda is using IBM's Watson internet of things technology to analyse data in real time https://www.ibm.com/blogs/internet-of-t ... -honda-f1/
So no they won't be sending sensitive PU software through email systems, it'll likely be through the services IBM provides to Honda https://www.ibm.com/internet-of-things/ ... -security/ Just as much risk sending data over the internet as there is sending data in a physical format i.e. people do tend to lose things.

[daverdfw]

as an IT guy,IMHO they wouldn't use email. But they would probably use a secure transfer method like a dropbox type of filesharing or just good ole FTP/SFTP. Chances are the team are using a secure tunnel for all Comms back to base. No chance these guys would send anything over the wire at a track where other teams could sniff the traffic. Pretty easy to setup a VPN tunnel , I have one at my house I can use when I am on the road.

[diffuser]

I would suspect teams are streaming their data back to their command bases and logging it there. I wonder if those large memory banks are even used now? Is the ECU data logging and learning and changing in real time?

I would be surprised if it's not logged to both places. Getting a reliable fixed link from the bunker to the racetrack isn't all that difficult.

Getting a reliable link from the racecar to the pit wall is actually very hard.

Think they use WIMAX 802.16. That transfers up to 100MB/sec.