New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

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New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by hollus » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:31 pm

There will be separate wastegate tailpipes from 2016, either 1 or 2. This is to appear in the new regulations:
5.8.2 Engine exhaust systems must have only a single turbine tailpipe exit and either one or two wastegate tailpipe exits which must all be rearward facing and through which all exhaust gases must pass. All and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must pass through the turbine tailpipe and all and only the wastegate exhaust gases must pass through the wastegate tailpipe(s). None of the tailpipes may be contained within any of the other tailpipes.

5.8.3 The cross-sectional area of the turbine tailpipe exit at the rearmost point of the turbine tailpipe must lie between 7500mm2 and 14000mm2
, and the total cross-sectional area of the wastegate tailpipe exit(s) at the rearmost point of the wastegate tailpipe(s) must lie between 1590mm2 and 2375mm2. If there are two wastegate tailpipe exits they must be equal in area.
http://www.f1technical.net/news/20171

First a question to the turbo experts here: Will this really increase noise that much? Are they used all that often anyways? Also, can this be used to increase power somewhat?

And now, to one of my favorite past-times:
Gentlemen, start your loophole hunting!

First loophole proposal: Use the wastegate as an F-duct of sorts. If you point it cleverly and set it up so that it is not used until you reach, say 13000rpm, then you have an f-duct "on-demand".
The obvious drawback is that you must operate without the wastegate virtually all the time to avoid accidental activation... or maybe not? If you use 2 wastegate tailpipes, and only their exits are regulated, what is to stop teams from using a fluidic switch or similar so that one wastegate acts as a wastegate normal does while the second will only let air out above the said 13000 rpm? You get the best of both worlds. A car could be setup so that it hits 320km/h in 8th at 13000 rpm, so the f-duct equivalent would be activated only above 320km/h. Handy for overtaking. One could also activate it when desired at 280km/h in 7th, or at 240km/h in 6th... One problem though is that the engine would need to tolerate running such high rpms...

Loophole proposal number two: The two wastegate tailpipes sit exactly over the (turbine) exhaust pipe, in contact with it and with each other, and they just so happen to extend a bit further backwards and bend somewhat upwards...

In any case, who the hell thought that "wastegate tailpipe exits which must all be rearward facing" was a sufficient description of anything? Some suspension members are "rear facing" too... Edit: this one is nicely clarified below.
Last edited by hollus on Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ian_s
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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by ian_s » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:58 pm

i was expecting the regulations to state a 'box' where the waste gate pipe exits must sit, and also to define the direction the pipes must face, but that doesnt seem to be there? this really will open up a range of possibilities, BUT any energy going out of the wastegate is energy that could be harvested by the MGU-H, so surely using it for aerodynamic purposes is going to be counterproductive.

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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by scarbs » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:12 pm

5.8.2 Engine exhaust systems must have only a single turbine tailpipe exit and either one or two wastegate tailpipe exits which must all be rearward facing and through which all exhaust gases must pass. All and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must pass through the turbine tailpipe and all and only the wastegate exhaust gases must pass through the wastegate tailpipe(s). None of the tailpipes may be contained within any of the other tailpipes.

5.8.3 The cross-sectional area of the turbine tailpipe exit at the rearmost point of the turbine tailpipe must lie between 7500mm2 and 14000mm2, and the total cross-sectional area of the wastegate tailpipe exit(s) at the rearmost point of the wastegate tailpipe(s) must lie between 1590mm2 and 2375mm2. If there are two wastegate tailpipe exits they must be equal in area.

5.8.4 The last 150mm of each tailpipe must in its entirety : a) Form a thin-walled unobstructed right circular cylinder with its axis +/- 5° to the car centre line when viewed from above the car and between 0° and 5° (tail up) to the reference plane when viewed from the side of the car. The entire circumference of each exit should lie on a single plane normal to the tailpipe axis and be located at the rearmost extremity of the last 150mm of the tailpipe. b) c) d) Be located between 350mm and 550mm above the reference plane. Be located no more than 100mm from the car centre line. Be positioned in order that the entire circumference of the exit of the tailpipe lies between two vertical planes normal to the car centre line and which lie between 170mm and 185mm rearward of the rear wheel centre line.

5.8.5 There must be no bodywork lying within the right circular cylinders which :
a) Shares a common axis with that of the last 150mm of each tailpipe.
b) Have a diameter 5mm greater than each tailpipe, starting at the exit of each tailpipe and extending rearwards as far as a point 600mm behind the rear wheel centre line.
c) Have a diameter 30mm greater than each tailpipe, starting 2mm rearwards of the exit of each tailpipe and extending rearwards as far as a point 600mm behind the rear wheel centre line.

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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by zztopless » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:19 pm

Thanks Scarbs... Trying to work out what that means, but am struggling. There is an article on f1.com that claims there could be a return to blown diffusers, but the wording you posted seems to contradict this?

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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by scarbs » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:28 pm

There's no greater scope to blow anything next year than there was this year

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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by BanMeToo » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:48 pm

hollus wrote:First a question to the turbo experts here: Will this really increase noise that much? Are they used all that often anyways? Also, can this be used to increase power somewhat?
There is occasionally some type of 'wastegate'/'blow off valve' sound coming from the Honda engines this year when we get onboard McLaren shots... is that what we'll be hearing more of next year on all cars?

If so that could be cool or it could get to be annoying.......... anyway I don't think that making these engines louder will help anything. They simply don't sound Angry like 10 cylinders @ 19,000 rpm did... (not that I am opposed to the current hybrid formula, but that's how it is.)

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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by hollus » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:39 pm

Thanks Scarbs, 5.8.4 and 5.8.5 clarify it quite a bit. So basically they have put the wastegate exits under regulations similar to the ones regulating the single exhaust right now. It certainly makes it difficult to blow anything othter than the monkey seat.
scarbs wrote:5.8.5 There must be no bodywork lying within the right circular cylinders which :
a) Shares a common axis with that of the last 150mm of each tailpipe.
b) Have a diameter 5mm greater than each tailpipe, starting at the exit of each tailpipe and extending rearwards as far as a point 600mm behind the rear wheel centre line.
c) Have a diameter 30mm greater than each tailpipe, starting 2mm rearwards of the exit of each tailpipe and extending rearwards as far as a point 600mm behind the rear wheel centre line.
They must have been really scared of a Coanda device when they stipulate different limitations at the exit of the tailpipe and starting 2mm rearwards of the tailpipe. Or are those 2mm simply to allow whichever hardware is holding the different exhaust pipes in place and relative to each other?
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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by hollus » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:53 pm

Pulling at straws here, but do the tailpipes themselves count as bodywork? If not one could use the wastegate tailpipes to obstruct part of the exit of the turbine exhaust (this part of the wastegate doesn't need to be round unless other rules stipulate so), then have them turn around and then turn around again to define legal exit sections.

It sounds bizarre to obstruct the main exhaust, but all teams have designed their cars to have them be as small as legal, so there must be an advantage, probably useable backpressure, to a smaller exhaust exit :arrow: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 78#p558478

Edit: No-go, exhausts are considered part of the bodywork. Otherwise we'd probably see the advent of the wing shaped second wastegate.
Last edited by hollus on Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by mep » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:58 pm

That’s nonsense. It does not change anything. You really wonder why lately they only come up with regulation changes that don’t change anything to the current performance distribution. In the past they at least tried to minimise the advantage of the leader.
I can’t see a massive change to the sound output either. To improve the sound the frequency needs to be increased. You achieve this by increasing the revs of the engine. Just lift that stupid 100kg/h rule above 10k rpm. This could be done immediately.


Edit: hmmm actually I do see some nice opportunities opening up there...
Oh dear FIA you just don’t realise what you have done there
#-o

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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by hollus » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:31 pm

While not changing the order much, the change allows renault and honda some free tokens to catch up as the pieces have to be modified anyways.

Regarding the opportunities... care to share?
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n_anirudh
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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by n_anirudh » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:45 pm

It would have been interesting if there would have been directed to minimise tire squirt or act as supply to DRS.

The only aero change we will be seeing is the alteration to the monkey seat and perhaps the DRS support.

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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by NL_Fer » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:47 pm

For those, who think controlling this is an a problem. 1 second of opened wastegate, right after WOT would be enough. Imagin coming out a corner, flooring it 1 second early. Normaly, this would cause for a spin. But imagin, now the wastegate would open, blowing down the diffuser. Instantly more rear grip, no spin, but only bennefiting of 1s earlier WOT.

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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by mep » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:52 pm

hollus wrote: Regarding the opportunities... care to share?
No, sorry I am out of this topic from now on.
I guess somebody else will spot it soon.

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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:10 am

For those who don't understand this rule:
5.8.5 There must be no bodywork lying within the right circular cylinders which :
a) Shares a common axis with that of the last 150mm of each tailpipe.
b) Have a diameter 5mm greater than each tailpipe, starting at the exit of each tailpipe and extending rearwards as far as a point 600mm behind the rear wheel centre line.
c) Have a diameter 30mm greater than each tailpipe, starting 2mm rearwards of the exit of each tailpipe and extending rearwards as far as a point 600mm behind the rear wheel centre line.
This is describing a "bounding cylinder."
So not your usual bounding box now, this is an imaginary cylindrical volume around the exhaust pipes.
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Re: New tailpipe regulations (exit holes and loopholes)

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:22 am

My Loop hole is the "Monkey staller"

Will post images soon.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne