Extra power from oil additives during the race.

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:15 am

Could it be that Petronas is utilizing this 'consumable' palm oil derived lubricant.. in F1? https://pij.sagepub.com/content210/4/213.short
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:54 am

Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:31 am

So, nearly a year after the O.P...

R-B has gone on record, claiming M-B is utilizing this set-up...

Back in the day 'oil dilution' by a measured dosage of fuel - was used to 'thin' mono-grade lubricant in cold weather..
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:32 pm

HscF1 wrote:
NL_Fer wrote:So what are you thinking of, the oil consumed from the cilinderwalls or the oil vapours that is sucked in trough the airintake?
Yes the oil from cilinderwalls get taken up into the fuel mixture when burned. 5 litres of oil on a 100 kg fuel use in a race is substantial.
Where did you get that data from?
5 liters of oil is an entire oil pan for a street car. That is a lot of blue smoke and a lot of contamination of the fuel air mixture aand the oil itself. Surely Formula1 piston rings aremt that poorly contructed.

5 liters of oil in 2 hours of track time including qualifying is 2.5 liters per hour. Or 40cc per minute. We should be seeing blue smoke the entire race!
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:00 am

"Smokeless" 2T oils have been available for a while now, so doubtless, control of such tribological tell-tales are well in hand...

http://www.maximausa.com/product/super-m/


&, as the O.P. noted, the use of metallic compound additives ( such as lead naphthenate) in consumable lubricants to both improve wearing component lubrication/durability & act as a fuel efficiency catalyst has been long known...

https://www.google.com/patents/US3348932

More newly discovered is the ability to use nano copper/carbon catalysts to convert CO2 to ETOH,
(& possibly within a running ICE, using selective cylinder process activation?)

I guess a swab scraping/gas sniffer probe to the exhaust outlet might be 'illuminating'...
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:24 pm

The Mercedes smoked a lot at the starts though. So that is another layer to the mystery.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Tipo59/06 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:30 am

Things to keep in mind.....

The oil sample investigation at Canadian GP could also have been used to track fuel additives(after the fuel meter) as they would leave a trace in the lube oil

Extensive oil migration tests in 2T engines show more power is the result... when oil is added at a greater quantity with about 18:1 optimum..... for reasons of plug fouling etc many manufactures settle on 32:1...but
More power from better ring sealing its a fact...and more so on a turbo engine

Smokeless 2T oils still smoke...but only during low temp's first starts etc......Ive always been curious at the Silver Arrows huffing away on the grid

Race engines operate with very little or no engine vacuum......ie foot flat on the floor ... therefore it becomes difficult to get oil to critical places...therefore valve seals..oil scraper rings are often non existent....this explains 5 liters of intended loss as normal.....particularly on a Turbo engine with sensitive impeller sealing rings...they need to be constantly wet

Could Mercedes be injecting a synthetic ester/polybutene lubricant with the fuel flow this would explain the smoky start up....which goes away with temp.......would be virtually undetectable unless the exhaust was smog checked...perhaps thats how the FIA will put this matter to rest

I still really doubt this...but its food for thought

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by HscF1 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:28 am

Look at what turns up a year later! :shock: =D>
https://nl.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-g ... ull-880033
Long and wide experience in gas engine technology. Love formula 1 and big fan of Max Verstappen.

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Tommy Cookers » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:48 am

J.A.W. wrote:More newly discovered is the ability to use nano copper/carbon catalysts to convert CO2 to ETOH,
(& possibly within a running ICE, using selective cylinder process activation?)
this would require the input of heat corresponding to the fuel value of the ethanol ?

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:49 am

Tommy Cookers wrote:
J.A.W. wrote:More newly discovered is the ability to use nano copper/carbon catalysts to convert CO2 to ETOH,
(& possibly within a running ICE, using selective cylinder process activation?)
this would require the input of heat corresponding to the fuel value of the ethanol ?
Laws of thermodynamics are immutable, sure T-C , ( 'cept for 'quantum' ops) but if the gas/heat - to be utilized is otherwise exhausted as noxious waste, where's the rub?
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by gambler » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:05 pm

I have heard the rumor 4-stroke karting guys are mixing a pint or so of methanol to a pint of heavy motor oil and using it in the crankcase.
At the end of the race the methanol is gone and the heavy oil is thin from heat.
What is going on here? What is the methanol doing?
Thanks .

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by PhillipM » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:48 pm

Vaporising and getting drawn in through the breathers probably. Doesn't sound great for the bearings though...

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Zynerji » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:55 pm

Hmm...

Should try nitro-methane instead of methanol!!!

If the mixed oil has the same viscosity-ish, wouldn't it work for a bit? Its not impossible to swap engine bearings in a kart engine....

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Brian Coat » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:14 am

As an aside ... Back in 1970s an alleged gasoline-class drag racing cheat was a few oz. nitro mixed in the oil and administered via the breather circuit.

CH3NO2 has low energy density though and might not be the best candidate for this kind of caper in a lean burn engine.

Gasoline has a much lower boiling point, higher energy density, plausible deniability when found in oil tank and no smell in the exhaust

.... or Merc could just have a better engine.

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by gruntguru » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:58 am

If you set out to deliberately cheat by introducing something via the oil, surely it would be an illegal additive that would have a significant effect in small quantities - Tetraethyl Lead for example.
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