2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
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2021 Engine thread

Post by NL_Fer » Wed May 04, 2016 7:53 pm

It means that the plans for a threatened standard engine will be shelved and hybrid turbos will be the default power unit for F1 until 2020. All teams are guaranteed to have an engine so there will be no repeat of Red Bull’s situation last season.
So the V6 Hybrid will be here for another 5 years. But in 2021 a new engine has to be chosen and what will it be like? This is what i think:

1. Stronger MGU-K.

Electric cars are already coming fast, the Tesla 3 is sold out before the 1st one has rolled out the factory. An even cheaper model is in development. So electric propulsion has be a bigger part of the new engine. MGU-K should be doubled or ecen trippled to approx. 300Kw.

2. Smaller ICE

To prevent +1000hp powerunits, the ICE will have to be smaller. Porsche built a great V4 or maybe cut the V6 in half, to an inline 3 cilinder. Anyway the next generation f1 will probably have smaller then 1L displacement.

3. New turbo

The hybrid turbo is an important part of the current hightech engine and recovered energy feeds the MGU-K. But also a big problem to implement by manufacturers and it makes the PU very expensive and complex. So will it be there in 2021? I'm not so sure.

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Wed May 04, 2016 9:13 pm

I think a downsized v6, maybe 800cc.
VVT
Twin scroll, MGU-H turbo.
Same size MGU-K
Triple battery capacity
Front wheel MGU-K
60kg Fuel tank

... And I think we would get similar lap times to the current spec!!

gruntguru
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by gruntguru » Thu May 05, 2016 12:13 am

Fuel flow 70 kg/hr.
je suis charlie

wuzak
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by wuzak » Thu May 05, 2016 2:33 am

gruntguru wrote:Fuel flow 70 kg/hr.
I guess that depends on what sort of power/efficiency they end up with in a couple of years' time and the amount of power given the ERS.

wuzak
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by wuzak » Thu May 05, 2016 2:39 am

Zynerji wrote:I think a downsized v6, maybe 800cc.
VVT
Twin scroll, MGU-H turbo.
Same size MGU-K
Triple battery capacity
Front wheel MGU-K
60kg Fuel tank

... And I think we would get similar lap times to the current spec!!
If they were going to 800cc I like the idea of a triple. Basically half the V6, so some money should be saved there. Or a 1.2l V4, which should suit the chassis people better.

They should allow front wheel energy recovery, but not deployment. That should all go through the rear wheels.

I don't think they need triple the battery capacity. With the flows in and out they may not need the capacity they have now.

What they would need is an increase in the amount allowed to be recovered (currently 2MJ) and deployed (4MJ) to/from the ES.

And aren't the current turbos twin scroll (turbine) already?

And if they did the triple the turbo would not need to be twin scroll.

Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Thu May 05, 2016 2:58 am

wuzak wrote:
Zynerji wrote:I think a downsized v6, maybe 800cc.
VVT
Twin scroll, MGU-H turbo.
Same size MGU-K
Triple battery capacity
Front wheel MGU-K
60kg Fuel tank

... And I think we would get similar lap times to the current spec!!
If they were going to 800cc I like the idea of a triple. Basically half the V6, so some money should be saved there. Or a 1.2l V4, which should suit the chassis people better.

They should allow front wheel energy recovery, but not deployment. That should all go through the rear wheels.

I don't think they need triple the battery capacity. With the flows in and out they may not need the capacity they have now.

What they would need is an increase in the amount allowed to be recovered (currently 2MJ) and deployed (4MJ) to/from the ES.

And aren't the current turbos twin scroll (turbine) already?

And if they did the triple the turbo would not need to be twin scroll.
Definitely a V configuration for the chassis symetry (why the I4 got scrapped for the current V6).
I like the front wheel ERS deployment... maybe put them on triggers on the wheel to allow the driver to "boost" them independently to aid in cornering or overtaking.
I would uncap all limitations on MJ for storage and deployment.
And all BMW 3 cylinder engines come with a twin scroll turbo due to the spool up RPM at about 1250 instead of 3200. Not a big deal with MGU-H, but single scroll technology is obsolete in the automotive world, so should not be part of the most technological motorsport on the planet.

trinidefender
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by trinidefender » Thu May 05, 2016 2:59 am

A V4 as from the calculations I have seen it will be more efficient.

Why not run the cars on natural gas? The sport is trying to be clean, natural gas is about the cleanest fossil fuel you can burn.

gruntguru
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Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by gruntguru » Thu May 05, 2016 3:10 am

wuzak wrote:
gruntguru wrote:Fuel flow 70 kg/hr.
I guess that depends on what sort of power/efficiency they end up with in a couple of years' time and the amount of power given the ERS.
I was thinking along the lines of 300kW MGUK over 4 wheels. That would enable a lot more harvesting and electric drive power. Such a car would be as fast as the current cars with a lot less fuel.
je suis charlie

Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Thu May 05, 2016 4:37 am

trinidefender wrote:A V4 as from the calculations I have seen it will be more efficient.

Why not run the cars on natural gas? The sport is trying to be clean, natural gas is about the cleanest fossil fuel you can burn.
If they could use pit stop swappable CNG fuel pods, that would be amazing!

ergenomic
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by ergenomic » Thu May 05, 2016 4:53 am

No ICE. Electric only.???

domh245
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Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:55 pm
Location: Nottingham

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by domh245 » Thu May 05, 2016 11:25 am

ergenomic wrote:No ICE. Electric only.???
I'd be surprised. I would only expect F1 to go fully electric once formula e has proven the technologies and is starting to challenge F1 in performance. Whilst things like car changes and short slow tracks are OK for F e, they certainly wouldn't be for F1. Maybe around 2030?

graham.reeds
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Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:16 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by graham.reeds » Thu May 05, 2016 5:20 pm

When does the ACO update their guidelines? The F1 guidelines were designed to be compatible with those.

So (going OT) Honda could put their F1 engine into the HPD LMP1 car and be legal from the off.

PlatinumZealot
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu May 05, 2016 10:31 pm

Naturally aspirated.
Variable valve timing and lift.
Four wheel KERS
Direct injection
Jet ignition
MGUH only on charging events.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

gruntguru
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Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by gruntguru » Thu May 05, 2016 11:22 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:Naturally aspirated.
. .
. .
MGUH only on charging events.
Exhaust turbine but no compressor?
je suis charlie

PlatinumZealot
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu May 05, 2016 11:58 pm

Yes. No compressor. I had this concept posted a few years ago. to imporve the sound. Only a portion of the gases only route through the turbine during charging events. A fairly low backpressure turbine. The rest of energy comes from the four wheel KERS.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne