2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:54 am
Maximum fuel flow at 15000 will have a shift/redline of 17000-18000rpm
This could be a good idea. =D>

Honda and the rest will need to change back from mechanical valvesprings to pneumatic valves, but that is not a big problem. All the manufacturers have the expertise to reinstate pneumatic valvetrains quickly and easily.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Pneumatic valves wont be the most expensive part. They still need to redesign the injection/cilinder to accomodate for faster combustion.

But that can be acceptable and in hope reset some balance in performance.

ACRO
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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when it comes to sound we have to accept the v10 atmo were just another philosophy than now .

in those times the basic goal was to pump as much air as possible thru the engine from a given displacement to get power. since volumetrics in an atmo engine have physical limits the only way to go was increasing rpm,s in search for output.

this resulted in extreme high reving screamers where the sound was just a pure side effect of a 'non efficient' engine throwing vast amounts of unused energy thru the exhaust .

today the goal is not to pump as much air as possible thru the engine but the right amount of it to make the most overall output from a given amount of fuel .

the turbo catches as much exhaust energy as possible instead of venting it unused .

high rpm,s only increase friction and are not needed now since the designers can generate output by boost pressure and not by high rpm,s

this also dampens the sound .

its a personal taste , but the 'silence' of todays engine represent their efficiency and any return to brutal screamers would mean to give up efficiency .

i see in future fake sound generators for the spectator than any return to less efficient ( and so louder ) engines .

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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ACRO wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:44 am
......high rpm,s only increase friction and are not needed now since the designers can generate output by boost pressure and not by high rpm,s ....
friction is largely 'side force' friction - this is related to piston acceleration and to combustion (and compression) loads

with NA F1 piston acceleration was dominant and combustion etc loads helped to reduce friction
with Hybrid F1 combustion (even compression) loads are dominant and piston acceleration helps to reduce friction
(one reason why running at 10500 is quite good)

as Hybrid F1 stroke is much longer than NA F1's their piston accelerations and velocities aren't hugely different

ACRO
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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i agree but i think bottom line now and for the future will be that there is no sense and way to create "screamers" from a turbo charged engine aimed for maximum overall efficiency.

thats also the reason no team uses the max allowed rpm,s - it would be a waste of efficiency and so power output over the race.

i watch now gp in baku and remember the v10 era.

its now a highly regulated show and not pure racing in an open class - but thats the way the world goes.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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15000rpm will be less efficient, but let the manufacturers work on that. Who knows what they will find for new cilinderwall material and lubricants.

gruntguru
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:11 pm
ACRO wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:44 am
......high rpm,s only increase friction and are not needed now since the designers can generate output by boost pressure and not by high rpm,s ....
friction is largely 'side force' friction - this is related to piston acceleration and to combustion (and compression) loads

with NA F1 piston acceleration was dominant and combustion etc loads helped to reduce friction
with Hybrid F1 combustion (even compression) loads are dominant and piston acceleration helps to reduce friction
(one reason why running at 10500 is quite good)

as Hybrid F1 stroke is much longer than NA F1's their piston accelerations and velocities aren't hugely different
You also need to consider displacement - 3 litre engine will have almost double the frictional loss of a 1.6 litre with similar cylinder size and operating speed.

RPM not only increases friction drag (higher normal forces and higher viscous friction) but also friction power due to higher rubbing velocity. (Power = force x velocity)
je suis charlie

roon
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Do piston rings greatly affect this? If cylinder pressures are greater will this necessarily increase their fiction upon the cylinder? Offsetting somewhat the gains of smaller displacement.

Singabule
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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roon wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:00 am
Do piston rings greatly affect this? If cylinder pressures are greater will this necessarily increase their fiction upon the cylinder? Offsetting somewhat the gains of smaller displacement.
I dont think friction is a big issue for manufacturers, but RPM is a big issue as you need insanely fast injector that is capable to provide stratified injection at very high RPM, not to mention there is no beneficial to achive that coz there is no road relevance for it. Atm, this is the best relevancy to road going engine as they can develop hybrid, battery, combustion concept, turbine material at the same time without limitations.

ACRO
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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honda had a qualifying v10 with only a compression ring and no oil control ring at all and this was only few hp benefit so i do not think piston rings friction is a very big issue . lets remember rings in any case must not have contact with the cylinder wall since this would be piston seizure .

whatever - increasing rpm,s means increasing total friction at any engine .

in an atmo v10 they accepted it because it was the only way to go for power .

i would assume the new regulations will drop the mgu-h and go bi-turbo instead for saving costs and also dealing with turbo lag - now the mgu-h deals with it , maybe direct injection and maybe catalytic converters / particullate filters to go even more green.

in no way they will go back to NA engines , very high rpm,s and pneumatic valves . lets also remember very high rpm 'screamers' would mean to drop the entire engine concept and call for significant shorter stroke again.

gruntguru
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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roon wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:00 am
Do piston rings greatly affect this? If cylinder pressures are greater will this necessarily increase their fiction upon the cylinder? Offsetting somewhat the gains of smaller displacement.
The ring design can be adjusted to suit the cylinder pressures anticipated. There are two main variables:
1. Static ring tension.
2. Gas pressure behind compression rings.
je suis charlie

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Singabule wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:24 am
Maximum fuel flow at 14K and even firing, should be enough to improve the sound overall
Why not bump the engines from a 1.6L V6 to a 2.1L V8 while they are at it? [V8, single-turbo, sound familiar? :D ]

Given they are already at a 90 degree vee angle, quite suitable for V8s, it should be fairly straightfoward? :D

Obviously, the fuel flow rate and fuel tank size should be proportionally increased by 33%. :wink: :lol: 1300hp+ in qualifying party mode. :D
ACRO wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:47 am
i would assume the new regulations will drop the mgu-h and go bi-turbo instead for saving costs and also dealing with turbo lag
V8 twin-turbo without MGUH would sound even better :D than V8 single-turbo with MGUH.
ACRO wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:47 am
whatever - increasing rpm,s means increasing total friction at any engine .

very high rpm,s and pneumatic valves
It's an entertainment spectacle, so they may well do so. :) The V6 hybrids already had pneumatic valves at the start, it was only changed to valvesprings when the low rpm operation was realised by the designers.

ACRO
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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i,m afraid its not the question of a v6 or v8 but the fact formula 1 in the past had an engine and now it has a power package where the ice is just a component of it .

lets remember again : sound is a product of unused exhaust energy and today formula1 cars harvest any possible exhaust energy combined with a very limited fuel flow and so limited amount of exhaust gases at all.

past f1 turbo v6 were louder because only a part of the exhaust gas was used to spin the turbo for boost pressure and the rest vented via wastegates, NA v8 or v10 were even more louder because they did not harvest exhaust energy at all .

when they skip mgu-h i expect the sound will improve a bit but not to the level of past turbo f1 and never to the level of an atmo f1 engine - regardless if v6 or v8

so either we accept the show and the new sound of hightech efficiency as it is or they will step back and blow again high amounts of unused heat thru the exhausts or they will fake us and install sound generators via loudspeakers in the cars .

that said : i do not like hybrid f1 at all where the ice is not the heart of the car but only a component to get the job done .

if this continues we are on a step to skip the ice at all and go fully electric

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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If they limit the amount of mgu-h recovery, the wastegates have to be opened and noise will increase.

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:50 am
roon wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:00 am
Do piston rings greatly affect this? If cylinder pressures are greater will this necessarily increase their fiction upon the cylinder? Offsetting somewhat the gains of smaller displacement.
The ring design can be adjusted to suit the cylinder pressures anticipated. There are two main variables:
1. Static ring tension.
2. Gas pressure behind compression rings.
I hear ring-gap is critical in boosting a high (9.5+:1) compression engine. Can you give any opinion on this?