2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
-14
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by saviour stivala » Fri May 31, 2019 9:05 pm

Some time ago Honda saw fit to patent an MGU-H. until the ICE is dead, electrification of the ICE is here to stay.

saviour stivala
-14
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by saviour stivala » Fri May 31, 2019 9:10 pm

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:03 pm
roon wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:46 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pors ... 1/4414564/

They had a TT V6 in the works for potential use in racing and in a supercar, but VW-Audi pulled out of WEC and F1 stuck with the MGUH.

Who/what benefits from MGUH development? Six+ years on and no road use yet, but F1 keeps it in the mix because of road relevancy or something about efficiency as marketing tactic. How about leave automakers and lawmakers to making their fleets efficient. That's fine. But why does F1 need to pretend to be a part of that?

F1 have proven that they can make a thermally efficient power unit, but this answers a question the auto industry seems to not have been asking. They're more concerned with fuel efficiency, part throttle optimization, and shutting off the ICE as often as possible.

The use cases are so different, road and track.
F1 only stuck with the mguh because Porsche refused to commit, everyone, including Merc and Ferrari had already publicly agreed to delete the mguh.

The mguh(in one form or another ) is being put to road application by several different manufacturers, including Nissan/Renault and Merc.
Any source as to Mercedes and FERRARI publicly having agreed to delete the MGU-H?.

AMG.Tzan
20
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:35 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by AMG.Tzan » Fri May 31, 2019 9:16 pm

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:03 pm
roon wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:46 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pors ... 1/4414564/

They had a TT V6 in the works for potential use in racing and in a supercar, but VW-Audi pulled out of WEC and F1 stuck with the MGUH.

Who/what benefits from MGUH development? Six+ years on and no road use yet, but F1 keeps it in the mix because of road relevancy or something about efficiency as marketing tactic. How about leave automakers and lawmakers to making their fleets efficient. That's fine. But why does F1 need to pretend to be a part of that?

F1 have proven that they can make a thermally efficient power unit, but this answers a question the auto industry seems to not have been asking. They're more concerned with fuel efficiency, part throttle optimization, and shutting off the ICE as often as possible.

The use cases are so different, road and track.
F1 only stuck with the mguh because Porsche refused to commit, everyone, including Merc and Ferrari had already publicly agreed to delete the mguh.

The mguh(in one form or another ) is being put to road application by several different manufacturers, including Nissan/Renault and Merc.
Almost every single engine is turbocharged nowadays! If MGU-H manages to make it to road cars, it will definitely help reduce fuel consumption and make hybrids a better choice until electrics gain better mileage and faster charging! Cost of it of course is a problem for now...

izzy
30
User avatar
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by izzy » Fri May 31, 2019 9:16 pm

roon wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 8:46 pm
Who/what benefits from MGUH development? Six+ years on and no road use yet, but F1 keeps it in the mix because of road relevancy or something about efficiency as marketing tactic. How about leave automakers and lawmakers to making their fleets efficient. That's fine. But why does F1 need to pretend to be a part of that?
perhaps the H's time is about to come, in road cars? electric is coming and the problem is charging infrastructure, and there's going to be a long period when the best kind of road car would be basically electric but one that can charge itself. Most journeys are short and most of the time you use a few kW in a queue. So a medium sized battery and a very small but super efficient petrol engine could be just the thing. Like the BMW i3 but done better

then with a turbo, adding an mgu to it shouldn't be a huge deal should it, once they're not going to extremes like F1. it's like a turbine really

NL_Fer
63
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by NL_Fer » Fri May 31, 2019 9:40 pm

Battery electric is already on the road en pretty good at it. The cost of charging a battery is very cheap and a more efficient carbon/chemical fuel alternative will be either expensive to develop or to run. The result is the willingness of manufacturers to spend another bilion at combustion engines is declining every year.

I strongly believe this V6 will be the final combustion engine. A 2021 update for more noise, more ers power and a final 2025-2030 update to biofuel, ethnanol or synthetic lng.

F1 can have great ideas, but the manufacturers must be willing to invest in it.

ENGINE TUNER
6
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Fri May 31, 2019 11:35 pm

AMG.Tzan wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:16 pm
Almost every single engine is turbocharged nowadays! If MGU-H manages to make it to road cars, it will definitely help reduce fuel consumption and make hybrids a better choice until electrics gain better mileage and faster charging! Cost of it of course is a problem for now...
I see it being used as part of a range extender for mostly electric large luxury cars & suvs, fleet cars, taxis, trucks etc until batteries get much better.

coaster
-5
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:10 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by coaster » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:45 am

V10 is dead and gone.
Rear end;
Inline 5 can make the 'music' also,
East west inline 5, 1.5 litre NA, 22000 rpm limit.
Front end;
Hybrid system, part 4wd for faster corner exits.
Lower the minimum weight, smaller, lighter, shorter, more nimble, faster.
Make it less like a road car and more exotic.
Yours truly,
Wolsy Esquire.

Zynerji
58
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:55 am

coaster wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:45 am
V10 is dead and gone.
Rear end;
Inline 5 can make the 'music' also,
East west inline 5, 1.5 litre NA, 22000 rpm limit.
Front end;
Hybrid system, part 4wd for faster corner exits.
Lower the minimum weight, smaller, lighter, shorter, more nimble, faster.
Make it less like a road car and more exotic.
I agree with much of what you say here. Would you be more specific as to what your version of AWD would be like?

coaster
-5
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:10 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by coaster » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:56 am

Maybe front emotor/diff/shaft so big brakes can be inside the wheels, harvest heat from the disc also.

The front disc seems such fertile ground for invention, 80 percent of the brake load, heat build up, so much energy.
Maybe ditch shafts and invent some kind of emotor disc which can benefit from this.
Stirling motor in disc and exhaust header?
Many satellites with decaying uranium convert heat this way, whats it look like i wonder.
Yours truly,
Wolsy Esquire.

roon
444
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by roon » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:54 pm

Melt salts within the discs during braking *waves wand* transfer to HX in exhaust stream prior to the turbine inlet. ~10% increase in full throttle EGT? Off throttle delta T would be greater, so perhaps more off throttle MGUH harvesting could be done during or right-after braking in addition to any cold-blowing work done.

Or maybe replace the electrical ES with a thermal mass fed by the means just mentioned: brake disc heat, and cooled by exhaust gases prior to a turbine. Or, if the salts could be conveyed directly to a bulb or plug within the combustion chamber, this might reduce the amount of fuel needed to heat the air inside the combustion chamber.

coaster
-5
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:10 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by coaster » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:58 pm

Not combining the heat roon, maybe a stirling motor/generator at the 3 main heat sources.
1 one each front disc and one in the exhaust headers. (closest to heat)
Not an exhaust turbine, although its inescapable that an exhaust turbine is the big ticket for energy recovery and would probably remain so even in NA form without a compressor.
Turbine equals noise cancellation, goodbye 'music'.

Clearly my agenda was only to make some noise.
Yours truly,
Wolsy Esquire.

roon
444
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by roon » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:38 am

Sounds heavy. How about: inboard discs, salt loop, split-cycle ICE, and a CC or tungsten bulb within the combustion/expansion chamber(s) supplementing fuel heating.

coaster
-5
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:10 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by coaster » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:30 am

The salt melting trick is new to me, must do my research, inboard brakes are nice but tend to 'chatter' when locked, torsional issues.
Agreed on heavy, the stirling is best stationary where mass vs efficiency is not a factor.
I will say, how about machining say 9 bores 20mm dia in a disc brake 28mm wide with a master rod and 8 slave rods like pratt and whitney? The weight penalty cancels as the disc doubles as a, erm brakes.
Yours truly,
Wolsy Esquire.

MtthsMlw
685
User avatar
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by MtthsMlw » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:01 am

AMuS
Synthetic fuel as of 2021
The premier class of motor sports wants to gradually convert to synthetic and CO2-neutral fuel.
The only problem: At the moment, these so-called E-Fuels are not yet available in sufficient quantities to cover a complete Formula 1 season, all test drives and test bench runs. For this reason, only 20 percent of this fuel will be added to petrol in 2021. The 20 percent refer to mass. In terms of energy density, it should already be 30 percent.
The proportion of these fuels cultivated in the laboratory is to increase continuously until 2025, preferably in 10 percent increments, in order to become completely independent of fossil fuels at some point in the future.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... 2-neutral/

gruntguru
436
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:44 am

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 9:54 am
gruntguru wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 5:37 am
... In terms of fuel efficiency it is better to run the ICE at higher loads....
this implies choosing a high gear and low revs

though eg
at 11550 rpm 120 kW will come or go via 100 Nm of MGU-K torque - (and X Amperes of current at Y Volts)
at 5775 rpm 120 kW will come or go via 200 Nm (the cap) K torque - (and 2X Amperes current at Y/2 Volts)
the electrical people won't support the 2X Amperes - it's inefficient
that's why during braking there's intense downshifting to keep revs high and current low

so there's some incompatibility between ICE and K when they're acting together
otherwise the K would become 'bigger' relative to the ICE as rpm reduced
Agreed.
My post was about whether to implement MGUK motoring at low PU loads (regardless of rpm) and more specifically in the region >10500 rpm where full ICE power is available.
je suis charlie