2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:33 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:34 am
Keep the same technology but reduce the engine size to 1 litre and allow 4 to 8 cylinders.
If they allowed 4 to 8 cylinders everyone would run 4 cylinders, especially if dispacement was cut to 1L.

Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Pyrone89 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:13 pm

Please no manual K, they are playing around with enough paddles, switches, dials and computer screens in this car as it is. And it would basically imtroduce the skill who has the best finger skills as you will have to constantly press and depress a paddle next to the click with shifting.

Now we are finally starting to see some engine convergence they change the rules again which is stupid. Find the biggest differentiator and make that more equal. I think this can be done by dropping the H and allowing more K (but keep it automatic/mapped/delivered with normal throttle) plus allowing more units of everything to be used before penalties (like 6) to have less endurance style racing

carisi2k
31
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by carisi2k » Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:00 am

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:33 pm
carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:34 am
Keep the same technology but reduce the engine size to 1 litre and allow 4 to 8 cylinders.
If they allowed 4 to 8 cylinders everyone would run 4 cylinders, especially if dispacement was cut to 1L.
would they. Do you think that ferrari wouldn't give the v8 a go. The existing 4 would probably stay with the v6 but maybe BMW, Audi, Porsche and toyota would give the 4 cylinder a go.

ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:49 am

Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:13 pm
Please no manual K, they are playing around with enough paddles, switches, dials and computer screens in this car as it is. And it would basically imtroduce the skill who has the best finger skills as you will have to constantly press and depress a paddle next to the click with shifting.

Now we are finally starting to see some engine convergence they change the rules again which is stupid. Find the biggest differentiator and make that more equal. I think this can be done by dropping the H and allowing more K (but keep it automatic/mapped/delivered with normal throttle) plus allowing more units of everything to be used before penalties (like 6) to have less endurance style racing
If they drop the H, how are they going to power the K? Especially a bigger one? You have no idea what you are talking about. The number of units is not affecting the racing(Merc has won several races on 7 race old engines against fresher ones), nor is it causing "endurance style racing". Please stop spewing illogical nonsense.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

ENGINE TUNER
6
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:54 am

carisi2k wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:00 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:33 pm
carisi2k wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:34 am
Keep the same technology but reduce the engine size to 1 litre and allow 4 to 8 cylinders.
If they allowed 4 to 8 cylinders everyone would run 4 cylinders, especially if dispacement was cut to 1L.
would they. Do you think that ferrari wouldn't give the v8 a go. The existing 4 would probably stay with the v6 but maybe BMW, Audi, Porsche and toyota would give the 4 cylinder a go.
From the late 70's to 1988 1.5L turbocharged engines of ANY cylinder count were allowed, only alfa Romeo tried a V8, with the majority being I4 and v6 engines. Increasing number of cylinders also increases frictional and thermal losses. If the formula called for 1L max, then they would all definitely move to 4 cylinder engines if not 3 or 2 if they were allowed. The original plan for the current formula was for 4 cylinder until Ferrari decided they would prefer a v6 and used the threat of their veto power to make it happen.

BrunoH
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by BrunoH » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:27 am

they should go back to the 2.4v8 it was great, sounded great, use the new battery tech , the engines were already made so no big costs.. they are cheaper.. the fans wold love it and teams wold save money. win win...

Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Pyrone89 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:42 am

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:49 am
Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:13 pm
Please no manual K, they are playing around with enough paddles, switches, dials and computer screens in this car as it is. And it would basically imtroduce the skill who has the best finger skills as you will have to constantly press and depress a paddle next to the click with shifting.

Now we are finally starting to see some engine convergence they change the rules again which is stupid. Find the biggest differentiator and make that more equal. I think this can be done by dropping the H and allowing more K (but keep it automatic/mapped/delivered with normal throttle) plus allowing more units of everything to be used before penalties (like 6) to have less endurance style racing
If they drop the H, how are they going to power the K? Especially a bigger one? You have no idea what you are talking about. The number of units is not affecting the racing(Merc has won several races on 7 race old engines against fresher ones), nor is it causing "endurance style racing". Please stop spewing illogical nonsense.
1. Stop insulting people
2. It is funny you say I dont understand it yet yourself make basic mistakes about what the K and H are and what they do (2 completely seperate sources).
3. There is constant engine saving going on, how is this not endurance style racing? Do you even watch F1 and listen to the team radios?

ENGINE TUNER
6
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 pm

Pyrone89 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:42 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:49 am
If they drop the H, how are they going to power the K? Especially a bigger one? You have no idea what you are talking about. The number of units is not affecting the racing(Merc has won several races on 7 race old engines against fresher ones), nor is it causing "endurance style racing". Please stop spewing illogical nonsense.
1. Stop insulting people
2. It is funny you say I dont understand it yet yourself make basic mistakes about what the K and H are and what they do (2 completely seperate sources).
3. There is constant engine saving going on, how is this not endurance style racing? Do you even watch F1 and listen to the team radios?
The H produces most of the electrical energy for the K, if you remove the H, where would you get the energy to run the K?

Yes I watch F1 and listen to the radios, there is no irregular engine saving going on. If HAM is miles ahead why would he keep his PU on max power? F1 has always been about winning by the smallest margin and minimizing the stress on the car components. This is nothing new.

Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Pyrone89 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:34 pm

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:17 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:42 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:49 am
If they drop the H, how are they going to power the K? Especially a bigger one? You have no idea what you are talking about. The number of units is not affecting the racing(Merc has won several races on 7 race old engines against fresher ones), nor is it causing "endurance style racing". Please stop spewing illogical nonsense.
1. Stop insulting people
2. It is funny you say I dont understand it yet yourself make basic mistakes about what the K and H are and what they do (2 completely seperate sources).
3. There is constant engine saving going on, how is this not endurance style racing? Do you even watch F1 and listen to the team radios?
The H produces most of the electrical energy for the K, if you remove the H, where would you get the energy to run the K?

Yes I watch F1 and listen to the radios, there is no irregular engine saving going on. If HAM is miles ahead why would he keep his PU on max power? F1 has always been about winning by the smallest margin and minimizing the stress on the car components. This is nothing new.
Braking does for the K

digitalrurouni
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by digitalrurouni » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:50 pm

And this is where F1's main problem lies. Regulation changes. Just when people get on top of the aero rules they change. Just when people are getting the hang of the PU rules, now they are changing. There's nothing wrong with the current PU. Leave it as is. Make the racing better by evolving the aero rules so cars can follow each other. More ground effects less wing dependency. Honda is on a charge. Renault is up there with Mercedes and Ferrari. Stable regs around PU will allow other manufacturers to come in as well.

ENGINE TUNER
6
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:51 pm

Pyrone89 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:34 pm
Braking does for the K
Braking only provides about 20% of the power that the K currently puts out, where are you going to get the rest of the 80% that the H currently provides?

Bandit1216
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:55 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Bandit1216 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:58 pm

digitalrurouni wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:50 pm
And this is where F1's main problem lies. Regulation changes. Just when people get on top of the aero rules they change. Just when people are getting the hang of the PU rules, now they are changing. There's nothing wrong with the current PU. Leave it as is. Make the racing better by evolving the aero rules so cars can follow each other. More ground effects less wing dependency. Honda is on a charge. Renault is up there with Mercedes and Ferrari. Stable regs around PU will allow other manufacturers to come in as well.
Amen to that.

NL_Fer
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by NL_Fer » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:07 pm

With manual K deployment, it would replace allot of engine mode tinkering en secret charging/deployment schemes.

Now we would hear mode 8, strat 6, dial 11 and it could mean, the mgu-k is going to use another deployment scheme, which we don’t know.

With manual deployment is, an engineer would say: release K/ERS/Boost earlier or don’t use it between corner 3 & 4. That would be clear to understand.

They used it between 2011-2013 KERS period, it is not new.

Together with a larger ES, those are changes that don’t need big changes in the current powerunit. Manufacturers can keep much of current design and continue development. Afterall, the 4 manufacturers already expressed their wish to keep current design.

mzso
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by mzso » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:33 pm

Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:13 pm
Please no manual K, they are playing around with enough paddles, switches, dials and computer screens in this car as it is. And it would basically imtroduce the skill who has the best finger skills as you will have to constantly press and depress a paddle next to the click with shifting.
They can throw all of that out, except the gearshift paddles, Then the button for K could be easily added.
Last edited by mzso on Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

henry
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Location: England

Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by henry » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:06 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:07 pm
With manual K deployment, it would replace allot of engine mode tinkering en secret charging/deployment schemes.

Now we would hear mode 8, strat 6, dial 11 and it could mean, the mgu-k is going to use another deployment scheme, which we don’t know.

With manual deployment is, an engineer would say: release K/ERS/Boost earlier or don’t use it between corner 3 & 4. That would be clear to understand.

They used it between 2011-2013 KERS period, it is not new.

Together with a larger ES, those are changes that don’t need big changes in the current powerunit. Manufacturers can keep much of current design and continue development. Afterall, the 4 manufacturers already expressed their wish to keep current design.
At most circuits K recovery is around 1 MJ. The current ES is allowed a 4 MJ SOC difference. The ES itself is probably 16 to 20 MJ. Why would a larger ES help?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus