F1 ICE more oxygen

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:55 am

these engines have further combustion after the exhaust port and then a second expansion (ok less efficient) in the turbine

there is a huge surplus of oxygen at all times (ok mixed with other gasses)

johnny comelately
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:56 pm

taking from a paper "Effects of oxygen enriched combustion..." by P. Baskar which includes Heywood et als (proviso is that this paper's focus is on diesels, BUT the inference is for hydrocarbon fuels as such):
increased oxygen level (in this case from 21% to 27%) in the combustion chamber tends to reduce the energy required
to burn combustible mixture. Enriching the intake air with oxygen led to a large decrease in ignition delay.
Increasing the oxygen content to a reacting fueloxidizer mixture leads to faster burn rates and the ability to burn
more fuel at the same stochiometry.
These effects also have the potential to increase the thermal efficiency and specific power output.
Increased oxygen level in the combustion chamber can be achieved either by mixing it in the intake air or by using oxygenated fuels. Both techniques almost have the same impact on the combustion.
They also observed a higher gross power, lower peak cylinder pressure and lower brake specific fuel consumption.
Song compared the combustion and emission characteristics of oxygenated
fuel and raw oxygen added into the intake air and found that the combustion characteristics of hydrocarbon fuel enhanced by supplying extra oxygen as it increases the flame velocity, flame temperature, lean flammability limit, flame stability, and available energy.
increase
in flame velocity and flame temperature can lead to a flame propagation which is not deflagration but it is combustion induced rapid phase transition.
An increased laminar burning velocity due to oxygen enrichment leads to increase in maximum pressure and
rate of pressure rise.

from one of the graphs, the reduction in BSFC is significant.

so, the question is could this be one of the keys to F1 engine efficiency?

johnny comelately
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:49 pm

further to this subject, i can remember in the days of the two stroke 500cc "motogp" bikes at hockenheim (old track) where the track went through the pine ? forest you had to jet there because of the extra oxygen ? , if you didnt they would sieze. and the power was noticeable in a situation where 3hp increase was able to be recognised by the riders.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:38 pm

a tiny percentage of a oxygen carrier fluid eg nitromethane or nitrobenzene will act as a combustion accelerator
eg Mercedes-Benz used 1% nitrobenzene to dominate F1 in 1954-5
are we sure FIA rules really exclude all possible accelerant factors in the fuel ? and their rules don't touch the 'oil' etc
presumably the F1 fuel is anyway tailored for best combustion

Hockenheim forest air is primarily distinguished by being cooler but with higher absolute humidity ?
(tropical) forest air doesn't have a reputation for easier breathing ie extra oxygen - rather the opposite ?

Rodak
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Rodak » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:06 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:38 pm
a tiny percentage of a oxygen carrier fluid eg nitromethane or nitrobenzene will act as a combustion accelerator
eg Mercedes-Benz used 1% nitrobenzene to dominate F1 in 1954-5
are we sure FIA rules really exclude all possible accelerant factors in the fuel ? and their rules don't touch the 'oil' etc
presumably the F1 fuel is anyway tailored for best combustion

Hockenheim forest air is primarily distinguished by being cooler but with higher absolute humidity ?
(tropical) forest air doesn't have a reputation for easier breathing ie extra oxygen - rather the opposite ?
See the 2018 Technical Regulations, Article 20:

20.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the engine oil used in Formula One is engine oil as this term is generally understood. The function of an engine oil is to lubricate moving parts, to improve the overall efficiency of the engine by reducing friction and to reduce wear. It also cleans, inhibits corrosion, improves sealing, and cools the engine by carrying heat away from moving parts. Engine oils should not enhance the properties of the fuel nor energize the combustion. The presence of any component that cannot be rationally associated with the defined functions of the engine oil will be deemed unacceptable.
20.1.2 Any engine oil, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.

johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:20 pm

Rodak wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:06 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:38 pm
a tiny percentage of a oxygen carrier fluid eg nitromethane or nitrobenzene will act as a combustion accelerator
eg Mercedes-Benz used 1% nitrobenzene to dominate F1 in 1954-5
are we sure FIA rules really exclude all possible accelerant factors in the fuel ? and their rules don't touch the 'oil' etc
presumably the F1 fuel is anyway tailored for best combustion

Hockenheim forest air is primarily distinguished by being cooler but with higher absolute humidity ?
(tropical) forest air doesn't have a reputation for easier breathing ie extra oxygen - rather the opposite ?
See the 2018 Technical Regulations, Article 20:

20.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the engine oil used in Formula One is engine oil as this term is generally understood. The function of an engine oil is to lubricate moving parts, to improve the overall efficiency of the engine by reducing friction and to reduce wear. It also cleans, inhibits corrosion, improves sealing, and cools the engine by carrying heat away from moving parts. Engine oils should not enhance the properties of the fuel nor energize the combustion. The presence of any component that cannot be rationally associated with the defined functions of the engine oil will be deemed unacceptable.
20.1.2 Any engine oil, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.
Fuel rules limit oxygen to 3.7% by weight, this only relates to the liquid phase fuel, it does not rule out oxygen coming in the air supply.
19.5 rule says "only ambient air may be mixed with the fuel as an oxidant" - that immediately creates a grey are using the word mixed. and ambient air where extra "distilled" oxygen coming from the ambient air is still ambient air.
as far as the spirit (pardon the pun) of the rules is concerned , which is important, IF this idea is feasible and can be incorporated in ,eg, road engines, it doesnt seem to be so devious as a contributor to a better engine to win with.

tropical air has a higher absolute humidity and therefore you have to lean the stoichometric ratio.
the air temperature at hockenheim in the forest was not measurably cooler , BUT the extra oxygen was the reason attributed to the jetting trap.

netoperek
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by netoperek » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:29 am

need to plant lots of flowers around the intake then! It won't be very efficient, but cool looking and very ecofriendly though! ;)
More seriously though. How strict is fuel's composition? I know that samples have to be approved by FIA, but is there any space for modification? would small additive that only under certain conditions could possibly act as a catalyst for cracking or other sort of composition modification in-between fuel tank-ICE or ICE itself?
I'm thinking also that maybe some catalist can be obtained from fuel itself. Apart from most basic ones, many compounds in fuel can be broken down into simpler forms, possibly with an oxygen or hydrogen leftover, too?

johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:33 am

netoperek wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:29 am
need to plant lots of flowers around the intake then! It won't be very efficient, but cool looking and very ecofriendly though! ;)
More seriously though. How strict is fuel's composition? I know that samples have to be approved by FIA, but is there any space for modification? would small additive that only under certain conditions could possibly act as a catalyst for cracking or other sort of composition modification in-between fuel tank-ICE or ICE itself?
I'm thinking also that maybe some catalist can be obtained from fuel itself. Apart from most basic ones, many compounds in fuel can be broken down into simpler forms, possibly with an oxygen or hydrogen leftover, too?
19.1.2 The detailed requirements of this Article are intended to ensure the use of fuels that are composed of compounds normally found in commercial fuels and to prohibit the use of specific power-boosting chemical compounds. Acceptable compounds and compound classes are defined in 19.2 and 19.4.3. In addition, to cover the presence of low level impurities, the sum of components lying outside the 19.2 and 19.4.3 definitions are limited to 1% max m/m of the total fuel.
19.1.3 Any petrol, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.
19.2 Definitions :
Paraffins - Straight chain and branched alkanes.
Olefins - Straight chain and branched mono-olefins and di-olefins.
- Monocyclic mono-olefins (with five or more carbon atoms in the ring) with or without paraffinic side chains.
Di-olefins - Straight chain or branched or monocyclic hydrocarbons (with five or more carbon atoms in any ring) with or without paraffinic side chains, containing two double bonds per molecule.
Naphthenes - Monocyclic alkanes (with five or more carbon atoms in the ring) with or without paraffinic side chains.
Aromatics - Monocyclic and bicyclic aromatic rings with or without paraffinic side chains.
Oxygenates - Organic compounds containing oxygen.
Biocomponents - Paraffins, olefins, naphthenes, aromatics and oxygenates, as defined above, derived in whole or part from biological origins. For the purposes of quantification, the biocomponent contribution of a given molecule is defined as the carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms from biological origin as a percent of the total molecule, on a mass/mass basis. The biocomponent contribution of a co-produced stream is determined as the bio feedstock percentage on a mass/mass basis.
Metals Metals are defined as alkali metals, alkaline earth metals, transition metals, actinides, lanthanides, post-transition metals and metalloids.
Alkali Metals Group 1 elements, excluding hydrogen.
19.3 Properties :
The only fuel permitted is petrol having the following characteristics :
Property Units Min Max Test Method
(RON+MON)/2 87.0 ASTM D 2699/D 2700
Oxygen wt% 3.7 Elemental Analysis
Nitrogen mg/kg 500 ASTM D 5762
Benzene wt% 1.0 GC-MS
DVPE kPa 45 60(1) EN13016-1
Lead mg/l 5.0 ASTM D 3237 or ICP-OES
Manganese mg/l 2.0 ASTM D 3831 or ICP-OES
Metals (excluding alkali metals) mg/l 5.0 ICP-OES

johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:29 am

netoperek wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:29 am
need to plant lots of flowers around the intake then! It won't be very efficient, but cool looking and very ecofriendly though! ;)
More seriously though. How strict is fuel's composition? I know that samples have to be approved by FIA, but is there any space for modification? would small additive that only under certain conditions could possibly act as a catalyst for cracking or other sort of composition modification in-between fuel tank-ICE or ICE itself?
I'm thinking also that maybe some catalist can be obtained from fuel itself. Apart from most basic ones, many compounds in fuel can be broken down into simpler forms, possibly with an oxygen or hydrogen leftover, too?
my apologies netoperek, the fuel specs are from the link posted by Pieoter on this subject, around page 85

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:22 pm

the flow work getting atmospheric oxidants into the engine is about 2000 times greater than with liquid oxidants

right now there's about 10000 different substances in pump gasoline worldwide
and about 20000 have been identified over the years
does the FIA have the legal status of all these in a list ? (eg relative to %oxygen and other permitted chemistry)

the oxygen allowance in the fuel is high to allow for alcohols being the mandatory bio-sourced content ?
are they all using alcohols eg bio-butanol ?
but the rules allow non-alcohol bio content - (eg another ingredient made from bio-butanol ?)

and exothermic reactions of fuel with substances other than oxygen are possible ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:02 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:22 pm
the flow work getting atmospheric oxidants into the engine is maybe 10000 ?? times greater than with liquid oxidants

right now there's about 10000 different substances in pump gasoline worldwide
and about 20000 have been identified over the years
does the FIA have the legal position of all these listed ? (eg relative to the permitted oxygen content)

the oxygen allowance in the fuel is high to allow for alcohols being the mandatory bio-sourced content ?
are they all using alcohols eg bio-butanol ?
but the rules allow non-alcohol bio content - (eg another ingredient made from bio-butanol ?)

and exothermic reactions of fuel with substances other than oxygen are possible ?
hydrogen combustion (with air) is exothermic as far as i know.

godlameroso
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by godlameroso » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:10 pm

johnny comelately wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:20 pm
Rodak wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:06 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:38 pm
a tiny percentage of a oxygen carrier fluid eg nitromethane or nitrobenzene will act as a combustion accelerator
eg Mercedes-Benz used 1% nitrobenzene to dominate F1 in 1954-5
are we sure FIA rules really exclude all possible accelerant factors in the fuel ? and their rules don't touch the 'oil' etc
presumably the F1 fuel is anyway tailored for best combustion

Hockenheim forest air is primarily distinguished by being cooler but with higher absolute humidity ?
(tropical) forest air doesn't have a reputation for easier breathing ie extra oxygen - rather the opposite ?
See the 2018 Technical Regulations, Article 20:

20.1.1 The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the engine oil used in Formula One is engine oil as this term is generally understood. The function of an engine oil is to lubricate moving parts, to improve the overall efficiency of the engine by reducing friction and to reduce wear. It also cleans, inhibits corrosion, improves sealing, and cools the engine by carrying heat away from moving parts. Engine oils should not enhance the properties of the fuel nor energize the combustion. The presence of any component that cannot be rationally associated with the defined functions of the engine oil will be deemed unacceptable.
20.1.2 Any engine oil, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this regulation, will be deemed to be outside it.
Fuel rules limit oxygen to 3.7% by weight, this only relates to the liquid phase fuel, it does not rule out oxygen coming in the air supply.
19.5 rule says "only ambient air may be mixed with the fuel as an oxidant" - that immediately creates a grey are using the word mixed. and ambient air where extra "distilled" oxygen coming from the ambient air is still ambient air.
as far as the spirit (pardon the pun) of the rules is concerned , which is important, IF this idea is feasible and can be incorporated in ,eg, road engines, it doesnt seem to be so devious as a contributor to a better engine to win with.

tropical air has a higher absolute humidity and therefore you have to lean the stoichometric ratio.
the air temperature at hockenheim in the forest was not measurably cooler , BUT the extra oxygen was the reason attributed to the jetting trap.
Oxygen by weight in it's liquid form but what about semi combusted form? There are a lot of electron transfer reactions prior to the combustion event itself. A lot of free radicals that bind with the hydro carbons making them unstable in different ways. Modeling the chemistry of the fuel kinetics and reaction chains is important, it let's you know precisely how much oxygen (ie air) your process needs. And we have electric machines to help regulate the oxidizer intake. Mercedes gained 50hp just optimizing the fuel for their process.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:59 am

Oxygen by weight in it's liquid form but what about semi combusted form? There are a lot of electron transfer reactions prior to the combustion event itself. A lot of free radicals that bind with the hydro carbons making them unstable in different ways. Modeling the chemistry of the fuel kinetics and reaction chains is important, it let's you know precisely how much oxygen (ie air) your process needs. And we have electric machines to help regulate the oxidizer intake. Mercedes gained 50hp just optimizing the fuel for their process.
[/quote]

re the free radicals, from what i know they contribute to knocking but of course that depends on the various circumstances.
With free fuel, in whatever form, from quench boundary layer, piston gaps or uncombusted (new word :wink: ) mixture within the 'normal ' chamber etc the usefulness of extra oxygen can only happen if those parameters are rectified