Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
lawnmower
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Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by lawnmower » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:11 am

Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system? Can we get rid of all these weights with advanced diesel combustion technology?

zac510
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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by zac510 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:19 am


lawnmower
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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by lawnmower » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:38 am

thanks. there are rules about using it here. is it mandatory to use spark plugs?

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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by henry » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:40 pm

lawnmower wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:38 am
thanks. there are rules about using it here. is it mandatory to use spark plugs?
Have you read 5.11.1?

Do you think that when it says the only means of ignition is a spark plug some other means would be allowed?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by lawnmower » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:24 pm

henry wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:40 pm
lawnmower wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:38 am
thanks. there are rules about using it here. is it mandatory to use spark plugs?
Have you read 5.11.1?

Do you think that when it says the only means of ignition is a spark plug some other means would be allowed?
if they do not want to use any ignition tool?

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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by Maritimer » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:46 pm

I don't know that compression ignition works well at the kind of revs the current engines run at. The Mazda road engine for example uses plugs for the low and top end because of how finicky controlling the detonation is at certain speeds and temps.

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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by henry » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:59 pm

lawnmower wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:24 pm
henry wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:40 pm
lawnmower wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:38 am
thanks. there are rules about using it here. is it mandatory to use spark plugs?
Have you read 5.11.1?

Do you think that when it says the only means of ignition is a spark plug some other means would be allowed?
if they do not want to use any ignition tool?
Diesel is often referred to as compression ignition. The fuel is ignited by compression.

Have you read 5.11.1? Do you think it allows ignition by compression rather than spark?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

lawnmower
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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by lawnmower » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:23 pm

henry wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:59 pm
lawnmower wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:24 pm
henry wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:40 pm


Have you read 5.11.1?

Do you think that when it says the only means of ignition is a spark plug some other means would be allowed?
if they do not want to use any ignition tool?
Diesel is often referred to as compression ignition. The fuel is ignited by compression.

Have you read 5.11.1? Do you think it allows ignition by compression rather than spark?
At this point the engines are usually ignited by compression. Currently, only high RPMs are needed, but you probably will not need spark plugs anytime soon.

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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by Big Tea » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:32 pm

I see what you are saying, but the word is "permitted" not "initiated" or some other variant.

I did go and check as it was an interesting interpritation :D
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

lawnmower
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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by lawnmower » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:48 pm

Maritimer wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:46 pm
I don't know that compression ignition works well at the kind of revs the current engines run at. The Mazda road engine for example uses plugs for the low and top end because of how finicky controlling the detonation is at certain speeds and temps.
yes, but road engines have variable air temperatures, fuel qualities and engine oils that must last a long time. it must also be a very durable and high-tolerance motor.
Last edited by lawnmower on Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

henry
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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by henry » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:52 pm

lawnmower wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:23 pm
henry wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:59 pm
lawnmower wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:24 pm


if they do not want to use any ignition tool?
Diesel is often referred to as compression ignition. The fuel is ignited by compression.

Have you read 5.11.1? Do you think it allows ignition by compression rather than spark?
At this point the engines are usually ignited by compression. Currently, only high RPMs are needed, but you probably will not need spark plugs anytime soon.
There is a difference between not needing spark plugs because you know how to make compression ignition work and having an engine without spark plugs which was your OP.

If the engine doesn’t have spark plugs will it break 5.11.1? Will the scrutinisers think that you must be using another method to ignite the fuel and so breaking the rules?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

lawnmower
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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by lawnmower » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:53 pm

sorry, I sent by mistake

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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by godlameroso » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:59 pm

5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted. The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden. Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted. Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

Rules say nothing about how many electrodes in each spark plug, nor do they say anything about flame ignition.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

henry
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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by henry » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:07 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:59 pm
5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted. The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden. Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted. Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

Rules say nothing about how many electrodes in each spark plug, nor do they say anything about flame ignition.
The OP asked whether an engine without spark plugs or coils would be legal.

Why would the number of electrodes make any difference if there are no spark plugs?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Re: Is there a rule about using spark plugs and ignition system?

Post by godlameroso » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:16 pm

henry wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:07 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:59 pm
5.11.1 Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted. The use of plasma, laser or other high frequency ignition techniques is forbidden. Only approved ignition coils may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

5.11.2 Only conventional spark plugs that function by high tension electrical discharge across an exposed gap are permitted. Spark plugs are not subject to the materials restrictions described in Articles 5.16 and 5.17.

Rules say nothing about how many electrodes in each spark plug, nor do they say anything about flame ignition.
The OP asked whether an engine without spark plugs or coils would be legal.

Why would the number of electrodes make any difference if there are no spark plugs?
They're not, not using, spark plugs. It's pretty much impossible to have compression ignition beyond 7k rpm, or at the engine loads the ICE sees.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee