Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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AJI
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Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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The debate over whether the cars have an ancillary alternator has been going on in some of the PU threads for a while.
My position is; why do you need an ancillary alternator when you have a K (as an alternator) and an H (as an alternator) and an ES (as 'unlimited' storage) and an additional 300kJ of storage external to the ES (as shown in the flow diagram below) for ancillaries? Thoughts?

Image

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Big Tea
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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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I do hope this is not dragging off topic, AJI, if you feel it is post and I will remove it.
It is in the same area and came across it when looking things up for this thread and found it interesting.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/02 ... -show.html

the output of a small car alternator is from 700w, and has to run lights heater etc.
Its quite old, from 2009 so I assume it would be far better now.

Volkswagen showed a prototype vehicle fitted with a thermoelectric generator (TEG) for waste heat recovery ....
Volkswagen claims 600W output from the TEG under highway driving condition.

Also on display was a system developed by BMW and DLR (German Aerospace) with a 200W maximum yield, and which has been used successfully for more than 12,000 km. Both BMW and GM are integrating TEGs with gasoline powertrains, with BMW planning to introduce TEGS in the 2010-2014 timeframe in the Series 5
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Mudflap
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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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No .
How much TQ does it make though?

AJI
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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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Big Tea wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:58 pm
I do hope this is not dragging off topic...
Off topic, but interesting none the less, so, keep it.
I would however like an answer to my question, if you'd be so kind as to indulge me?

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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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Mudflap wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:32 pm
No .
For the reasons I stated above, or have I missed something?

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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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AJI wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:50 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:58 pm
I do hope this is not dragging off topic...
Off topic, but interesting none the less, so, keep it.
I would however like an answer to my question, if you'd be so kind as to indulge me?
Could we maybe compile a list of what would use power and how much would be needed?


This is also background information

https://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2012/06/ ... -failures/

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... li/434498/
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AJI
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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:23 am

Could we maybe compile a list of what would use power and how much would be needed?
Why? We already know that the vast majority of the electrical energy generated by the car is used by its own electric motors to propel the car, but I'll have a crack at it if you like.

We can exclude everything that can be hydraulically powered, so everything from high pressure pumps right down to throttle butterflies, the ERS covers the vast majority of heavy duty items including BBW.., so at a guess the ancillary items would be: ECU, Comms, Cameras..? The only item I can find a number for is the ECU, which is ~69W fully loaded. I assume telemetry would be covered by the ECU as would the steering wheel. Let's say 300W max...

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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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AJI wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:18 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:23 am

Could we maybe compile a list of what would use power and how much would be needed?
Why? We already know that the vast majority of the electrical energy generated by the car is used by its own electric motors to propel the car, but I'll have a crack at it if you like.

We can exclude everything that can be hydraulically powered, so everything from high pressure pumps right down to throttle butterflies, the ERS covers the vast majority of heavy duty items including BBW.., so at a guess the ancillary items would be: ECU, Comms, Cameras..? The only item I can find a number for is the ECU, which is ~69W fully loaded. I assume telemetry would be covered by the ECU as would the steering wheel. Let's say 300W max...
But I don't think it is easy as that to pin down. What about things like power steering, even things like the drivers drinks bottle. lots of things that do not obviously come to mind.
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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:20 pm
AJI wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:18 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:23 am

Could we maybe compile a list of what would use power and how much would be needed?
Why? We already know that the vast majority of the electrical energy generated by the car is used by its own electric motors to propel the car, but I'll have a crack at it if you like.

We can exclude everything that can be hydraulically powered, so everything from high pressure pumps right down to throttle butterflies, the ERS covers the vast majority of heavy duty items including BBW.., so at a guess the ancillary items would be: ECU, Comms, Cameras..? The only item I can find a number for is the ECU, which is ~69W fully loaded. I assume telemetry would be covered by the ECU as would the steering wheel. Let's say 300W max...
But I don't think it is easy as that to pin down. What about things like power steering, even things like the drivers drinks bottle. lots of things that do not obviously come to mind.
Wouldn't power steering need to be hydraulic? I can see it being abusable if electric..

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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:20 pm
....What about things like power steering, even things like the drivers drinks bottle. lots of things that do not obviously come to mind.
Sure, but I think it's pretty safe to assume that an F1 car uses less energy for its ancillaries than a basic road car.
When they can legally deploy 4 million watts from the ES a 10 watt drink bottle pales into insignificance. As I suggested, everything that could be hydraulically powered would be hydraulically powered, steering included.

C'mon Big T, I appreciate the debate and your links to other data, but it's time to take a position...

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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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AJI wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:55 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:20 pm
....What about things like power steering, even things like the drivers drinks bottle. lots of things that do not obviously come to mind.
Sure, but I think it's pretty safe to assume that an F1 car uses less energy for its ancillaries than a basic road car.
When they can legally deploy 4 million watts from the ES a 10 watt drink bottle pales into insignificance. As I suggested, everything that could be hydraulically powered would be hydraulically powered, steering included.

C'mon Big T, I appreciate the debate and your links to other data, but it's time to take a position...
I thought my position was clear on the other thread. I can not state that they do not have an alternator, but I think it is quite plain they do not need to have an alternator, unless it has more to do than just provide a trickle of power.
For example, at one time Vauxhall had a pump on the rear of the alternator, so maybe there is a way they double up and get 'free stuff'
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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:58 pm
I thought my position was clear on the other thread. I can not state that they do not have an alternator, but I think it is quite plain they do not need to have an alternator, unless it has more to do than just provide a trickle of power.
For example, at one time Vauxhall had a pump on the rear of the alternator, so maybe there is a way they double up and get 'free stuff'
Fair enough.., apart from the "double up and get 'free stuff'", part, which would be illegal under the current rules.

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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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AJI wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:07 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:58 pm
I thought my position was clear on the other thread. I can not state that they do not have an alternator, but I think it is quite plain they do not need to have an alternator, unless it has more to do than just provide a trickle of power.
For example, at one time Vauxhall had a pump on the rear of the alternator, so maybe there is a way they double up and get 'free stuff'
Fair enough.., apart from the "double up and get 'free stuff'", part, which would be illegal under the current rules.
Would it? an unmetered connection goes both ways, and a few components switch an alternator into a motor.
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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:13 pm

Would it? an unmetered connection goes both ways, and a few components switch an alternator into a motor.
That's why I suggest it would be illegal, it's effectively a second mini K, either in GU-K or MGU-K form. Pretty easy to spot by the FIA I would think...

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Re: Do F1 cars have an ancillary alternator?

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Zynerji wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:44 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:20 pm
AJI wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:18 pm


Why? We already know that the vast majority of the electrical energy generated by the car is used by its own electric motors to propel the car, but I'll have a crack at it if you like.

We can exclude everything that can be hydraulically powered, so everything from high pressure pumps right down to throttle butterflies, the ERS covers the vast majority of heavy duty items including BBW.., so at a guess the ancillary items would be: ECU, Comms, Cameras..? The only item I can find a number for is the ECU, which is ~69W fully loaded. I assume telemetry would be covered by the ECU as would the steering wheel. Let's say 300W max...
But I don't think it is easy as that to pin down. What about things like power steering, even things like the drivers drinks bottle. lots of things that do not obviously come to mind.
Wouldn't power steering need to be hydraulic? I can see it being abusable if electric..

You are right.
Power steering systems are allowed, but these must not be electronically controlled or powered. Four-wheel steering is forbidden. The car’s steering wheel, steering column and steering rack all have to pass an FIA impact test.

https://www.formula1.com/en/championshi ... stems.html


Edit.

I should have known there is a thread here on it.
viewtopic.php?t=12777
Last edited by Big Tea on Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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