FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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siskue2005
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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e30ernest
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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OMG... LOL that really blew up in their faces.... :mrgreen:

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Blackout
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Sevach wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:01 pm
Honda didn't make any great progress with the no party mode rule.

Renault is solid number 2 now.
Just like before.

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1158
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:29 am

Williams has been running the PU to the maximum in qualifyings so far and even in races, probably much harder than Mercedes themselves due to their relative track positions in races. Their cooling isn't as aerodynamically efficient as Mercedes, hence their packaging is also not as great. But their cooling package does its job of keeping the PU as cool as required. So, I don't think Mercedes need to detune the PU for Williams' sake.
For a couple laps you are correct. I'm wondering about running the PU in a higher mode for an extended period of time. The amount of heat the PU generates in the high mode is one reason they cannot sustain that mode for more than a short period of time.

If the mode is fixed for the race and the same mode applies for all teams using a given PU I was suggesting cooling requirements across all customers would need to be taken into account or it could lead to PU damage for teams with less efficient cooling packages.

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Moore77
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1158 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:38 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:29 am

Williams has been running the PU to the maximum in qualifyings so far and even in races, probably much harder than Mercedes themselves due to their relative track positions in races. Their cooling isn't as aerodynamically efficient as Mercedes, hence their packaging is also not as great. But their cooling package does its job of keeping the PU as cool as required. So, I don't think Mercedes need to detune the PU for Williams' sake.
For a couple laps you are correct. I'm wondering about running the PU in a higher mode for an extended period of time. The amount of heat the PU generates in the high mode is one reason they cannot sustain that mode for more than a short period of time.

If the mode is fixed for the race and the same mode applies for all teams using a given PU I was suggesting cooling requirements across all customers would need to be taken into account or it could lead to PU damage for teams with less efficient cooling packages.
Let me clarify. I am of the belief that, Williams has been using the PU on their car in more aggressive modes than Mercedes in the past races. Because Mercedes used to disappear in a couple of laps in races, they always used to turn down their engines and didn't really expose their cooling package.

Whereas Williams and Racing Points were fighting for positions in races and must have been using more aggressive engine modes to retain positions OR to try and gain a position or two. If they have been doing that, then their cooling packages must have been good enough to run the PU in more aggressive manner than that of Mercedes. In fact, this must be more a challenge for Mercedes than their customers. May be that is why Mercedes was trialing two different engine covers in practice with different cooling outlets?
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siskue2005
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:53 pm
1158 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:38 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:29 am

Williams has been running the PU to the maximum in qualifyings so far and even in races, probably much harder than Mercedes themselves due to their relative track positions in races. Their cooling isn't as aerodynamically efficient as Mercedes, hence their packaging is also not as great. But their cooling package does its job of keeping the PU as cool as required. So, I don't think Mercedes need to detune the PU for Williams' sake.
For a couple laps you are correct. I'm wondering about running the PU in a higher mode for an extended period of time. The amount of heat the PU generates in the high mode is one reason they cannot sustain that mode for more than a short period of time.

If the mode is fixed for the race and the same mode applies for all teams using a given PU I was suggesting cooling requirements across all customers would need to be taken into account or it could lead to PU damage for teams with less efficient cooling packages.
Let me clarify. I am of the belief that, Williams has been using the PU on their car in more aggressive modes than Mercedes in the past races. Because Mercedes used to disappear in a couple of laps in races, they always used to turn down their engines and didn't really expose their cooling package.

Whereas Williams and Racing Points were fighting for positions in races and must have been using more aggressive engine modes to retain positions OR to try and gain a position or two. If they have been doing that, then their cooling packages must have been good enough to run the PU in more aggressive manner than that of Mercedes. In fact, this must be more a challenge for Mercedes than their customers. May be that is why Mercedes was trialing two different engine covers in practice with different cooling outlets?
i dont think Merc allows their customers to run in higher mode than what they prescribed.
They cant run mode aggressive modes, the modes and number of laps they are allowed to do that are controlled by mercedes

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Moore77
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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siskue2005 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:42 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:53 pm
1158 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 5:38 pm


For a couple laps you are correct. I'm wondering about running the PU in a higher mode for an extended period of time. The amount of heat the PU generates in the high mode is one reason they cannot sustain that mode for more than a short period of time.

If the mode is fixed for the race and the same mode applies for all teams using a given PU I was suggesting cooling requirements across all customers would need to be taken into account or it could lead to PU damage for teams with less efficient cooling packages.
Let me clarify. I am of the belief that, Williams has been using the PU on their car in more aggressive modes than Mercedes in the past races. Because Mercedes used to disappear in a couple of laps in races, they always used to turn down their engines and didn't really expose their cooling package.

Whereas Williams and Racing Points were fighting for positions in races and must have been using more aggressive engine modes to retain positions OR to try and gain a position or two. If they have been doing that, then their cooling packages must have been good enough to run the PU in more aggressive manner than that of Mercedes. In fact, this must be more a challenge for Mercedes than their customers. May be that is why Mercedes was trialing two different engine covers in practice with different cooling outlets?
i dont think Merc allows their customers to run in higher mode than what they prescribed.
They cant run mode aggressive modes, the modes and number of laps they are allowed to do that are controlled by mercedes
Is there some statement from Mercedes, stating the same. It would help if you post that. Just curious to know. All I have heard over the last few years is, the customer teams saying, Mercedes has strengthened the more powerful modes so that they can run them longer in races.

It is possible that Mercedes doesn't use them so much due to the gap they open at the front and cruise, whereas the customer teams might have to use to full extent, even if it falls under the guidance values of Mercedes, which Mercedes themselves doesn't go to. On that basis I am saying, their cooling packages must be holding up well to use those aggressive modes longer (as long as Mercedes guidance allows, but Mercedes doesn't use themselves that long).
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TimW
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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I think it way too early to draw any conclusions on the impact of the single mode. Only thing we can conclude is that Red Bull is poor in Monza.

What surprised me is that there was still a big improvement from Q1 to Q2, ~0.4s for the top 10. From Q2 to Q3 there was no improvement.
Can so much (and consistent) lap time be attributed to improving track conditions, and 'getting the hang of it'?

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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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TimW wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:58 pm
I think it way too early to draw any conclusions on the impact of the single mode. Only thing we can conclude is that Red Bull is poor in Monza.

What surprised me is that there was still a big improvement from Q1 to Q2, ~0.4s for the top 10. From Q2 to Q3 there was no improvement.
Can so much (and consistent) lap time be attributed to improving track conditions, and 'getting the hang of it'?
Yes, and also for the top teams it's a case of not risking 100% to progress from q1 when it's not needed

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1158
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I do believe each PU has a certain number of higher mode uses, every PU manufacturer is like that. I believe they leave it up to the teams to decided how many times per event the highest mode is used, but there is a finite amount of uses for each PU.

I'd guess track evolution does play a role in the jump. Could also be better optimization of the deployment modes after experiencing conditions in Q1.

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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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In race. Push to pass a certain number available

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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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TimW wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:58 pm
I think it way too early to draw any conclusions on the impact of the single mode. Only thing we can conclude is that Red Bull is poor in Monza.

What surprised me is that there was still a big improvement from Q1 to Q2, ~0.4s for the top 10. From Q2 to Q3 there was no improvement.
Can so much (and consistent) lap time be attributed to improving track conditions, and 'getting the hang of it'?
Yes, and like the other poster was saying. Q1 they will come Through anyway, so you don,t put the car on the absolute limit. Q3 you do take (some) risk. They showed Kimi’s fast lap on tv today (when he was at Ferrari) and he had his left front 90% on the grass to make the turn as wide as possible.
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Big Tea
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Sieper wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:33 pm
TimW wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:58 pm
I think it way too early to draw any conclusions on the impact of the single mode. Only thing we can conclude is that Red Bull is poor in Monza.

What surprised me is that there was still a big improvement from Q1 to Q2, ~0.4s for the top 10. From Q2 to Q3 there was no improvement.
Can so much (and consistent) lap time be attributed to improving track conditions, and 'getting the hang of it'?
Yes, and like the other poster was saying. Q1 they will come Through anyway, so you don,t put the car on the absolute limit. Q3 you do take (some) risk. They showed Kimi’s fast lap on tv today (when he was at Ferrari) and he had his left front 90% on the grass to make the turn as wide as possible.
There are also less cars in Q3, and those tend to be quicker than those in q2 if you are chasing a tow.

A better pick pf position and a better tow plus if you have a big off and damage the car, you are in Q3 anyway, and the team have overnight to fix the car, pressure off

All small things, but they add up
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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You can choose how much you decide to take out of your tires (i.e., how much you push/extract performance from the tires) in Q1 and Q2.

If you're a top team like Mercedes/RB, maybe you carry a few laps of extra fuel in Q1/Q2 (due to the extra traffic on track and possibility of needing a few more laps/time on circuit) before only allowing the car a "sniff of an oily rag" in Q3.

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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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1158 wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:07 pm
I do believe each PU has a certain number of higher mode uses, every PU manufacturer is like that. I believe they leave it up to the teams to decided how many times per event the highest mode is used, but there is a finite amount of uses for each PU.

I'd guess track evolution does play a role in the jump. Could also be better optimization of the deployment modes after experiencing conditions in Q1.
Mercedes HPP call this the phase document. It details how long each mode can be run.