2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
NL_Fer
99
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

After a 2022 freeze, we will finally see a new powerunit formula in 2025 or 2026. And looking at al the news an developments in other racing series and the automobile industry, we can be certain that lower cost will be the major target of the new engine. Although is very unlikely internal combustion engines are gone the next decade, the big manufacturers have stated, that they will not spend major amounts of money in development of new engines. The current technology is good enough, even if they need to run bio/synthetic fuel. So to keep current manufacturers or attract new ones, the new powerunit will has to be much cheaper and development limited.

Another certainty is that it will be a hybrid. Electric mobility will become significant this decade and all manufacturers will promote their electric or hybrid technology. F1 has been hybrid since 2011 and future will be probably more electric and not less.

So my speculation for 2025:

1.6 V6 Turbocharged ICE
FIA standard exhaust heat energy recovery generator
250Kw MGU-K

1.6 V6 again because they can keep existing gearbox and rear suspension. Turbocharged because it is more efficient and lighter and by using a conventional turbo, smaller manufacturers should be able to develop such an engine. A conventional turbo will not produce current high boost pressure, so to compensate the powerunit should hit 18000rpm. Imagine the sound :P

FIA standard exhaust recovery unit, because currently the MGU-H contributes for over 4MJ electric energy every lap. It makes the hybrid system much more effective than MGU-K only (1-2MJ). We have seen that already with KERS 2009-2013, where in that time the gain was mostly lost to higher car weight. A spec recovery unit should be a cost-effective solution to keep all the benefits, without starting another battle for recovery gains, like we have seen past 6 years.

A 250Kw MGU-K should keep up with Formula-E and WEC powerlevels.

User avatar
Big Tea
165
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

As you say, there seems to be a push on cost reduction. As a result I would not be surprised to see big changes to the whole show. There are problems with tyres, a push to fuel economy as well as fuel type so what is the possibility of reducing engine capacity along with complexity and cost?

I have felt for a while now F1 cars are too fast, and it is only the figures on the screen that gain anything from it.
Racing at 150 mph is as good as racing at 180 mph, as long as all the cars are in the same range.

For instance, a 1 ltr with turbo and unlimited regen plus a size and weight reduction in proportion would be effectively no different to the parades we see so often, except that smaller more nimble and with aero mods could be far more competitive and actually race each other more closely, and, if what the tyre makers claim is right, leave us with far better tyre options.

So, lower cost, better economy better show, and no doubt opening up more avenues to hybrid development?
Oh, and many tracks would need corners put back in :evil:

This is where the 'We want 10 ltr W16's 40 feet long and 20 feet wide' rises its head?
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it-
Voltaire, or several other claimants.

Jolle
Jolle
255
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

I believe the basis of cost reduction in F1 is not simplification or limitation but standardisation. In other words, if the only part that could be developed are the rear view mirrors, the top teams would sink millions into developing the most exquisite shapes to gain an advantage.

As the ICE has run its course in high volume production cars in the near future and a full electric F1 car is not yet possible, I think a small but powerful spec ICE would be a good basis for the teams to develop various hybrid components on to gain an edge. Also, a more liberal ES regulation should let Panasonic, A123, Exite etc enter the race as companies like Petronas and Shell do now.

User avatar
godlameroso
515
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

V6's all sound like vacuum cleaners. It's the wrong number of bores. Nothing sounds better than a V12, but that's too many for this day and age. The V4 in the 919 was a nice little engine. Had a decent sound to it, much better than a vacuum cleaner V6.
Saishū kōnā

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
99
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

I don’t believe V6 is the problem. There allot of good sounding V6’s with plenty of midrange noise. Think of the Alfa Romeo Busso, current Jaguar and Lotus V6, Lexus LFA. The F1 V6 sound muffled because of the high boost pressure, excess air ratio and MGU-H turning the turbo into a muffler.

The 919 sounded better because of a conventional turbocharger, normal boost pressure and independent heat recovery turbine. Also I doubt of a 2.0 V4 would rev 18000rpm or a 1.3 V4 would produce enough power.

Jolle
Jolle
255
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

NL_Fer wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:31 pm
I don’t believe V6 is the problem. There allot of good sounding V6’s with plenty of midrange noise. Think of the Alfa Romeo Busso, current Jaguar and Lotus V6, Lexus LFA. The F1 V6 sound muffled because of the high boost pressure, excess air ratio and MGU-H turning the turbo into a muffler.

The 919 sounded better because of a conventional turbocharger, normal boost pressure and independent heat recovery turbine. Also I doubt of a 2.0 V4 would rev 18000rpm or a 1.3 V4 would produce enough power.
Natural aspirated? A 250cc cylinder can rev up to 20.000 or something, a 500cc would never achieve that without very expensive materials and a lot of (extra) fuel. MotoGP are getting something like 250 hp out of a 1.000 cc 4 cylinder?

Anyway, except sound, NA has only downsides. The higher speeds you need for power are very inefficient and expensive to engineer.

User avatar
godlameroso
515
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

NL_Fer wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:31 pm
I don’t believe V6 is the problem. There allot of good sounding V6’s with plenty of midrange noise. Think of the Alfa Romeo Busso, current Jaguar and Lotus V6, Lexus LFA. The F1 V6 sound muffled because of the high boost pressure, excess air ratio and MGU-H turning the turbo into a muffler.

The 919 sounded better because of a conventional turbocharger, normal boost pressure and independent heat recovery turbine. Also I doubt of a 2.0 V4 would rev 18000rpm or a 1.3 V4 would produce enough power.
Lexus LFA is a V10, Lotus V6 = Toyota = raspy vacuum cleaner, Nissan VQ38 in the GTR = vacuum cleaner.
Saishū kōnā

V12-POWER
V12-POWER
-6
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 4:48 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

By the way things are now, they can go the same way of early 2000s CART engines, which I think they had around 900hp

these were nice screamers and were turbocharged too so to please the tree hugging masses and “road relevancy” warriors

However, i believe there’s gonna be a huge shift in the perception of manufacturers regarding F1 so we might not even get a turbocharged unit at all neither it’s gonna be so hybrid-focused

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

I have added "speculation" to the thread title. No real info available (yet).
¡Puxa Esportin!

User avatar
jjn9128
643
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

hollus wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:35 pm
I have added "speculation" to the thread title. No real info available (yet).
Other than it'll probably be a 2 stroke. And possibly opposed piston.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
374
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Repeating what I said in the other thread just in case anyone has access to this.
I'll update if I manage to get a copy of the presentations.

Can anyone access the IMechE high performance powertrains conference presentations from November this year?
https://events.imeche.org/ViewEvent?e=7066

I am told Pat Symonds discussed at large their vision for 2026 engines.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
99
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

I have been reading about the opposing piston two stroke. Impressive technology, but do you believe car manufacturers are going to built such engines?

User avatar
Big Tea
165
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:32 pm
I have been reading about the opposing piston two stroke. Impressive technology, but do you believe car manufacturers are going to built such engines?
If it is within the rules and gives them an advantage they would use clockwork.
Would it be any more expense than this years engine? I suppose the clincher would be economy, which is supposed to be good, and long life without losing power, which may be suspect.
I am assuming the 'two stroke' is not t2 mix oil burning though.

Anyone know what piston ring life is like on them? Instinct says each time they pass the port it runs a risk.
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it-
Voltaire, or several other claimants.

Jolle
Jolle
255
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

With ICE being phased out entirely in the car industry (although many will be “what about fuel cells, bio fuel etc”, there are nog big manufacturers that are backing this movement) its not logical that a new type of ICE is going to be developed for F1. I think it’s more a political move or fantasy as we all transition into electric motors.

User avatar
Big Tea
165
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:27 pm
With ICE being phased out entirely in the car industry (although many will be “what about fuel cells, bio fuel etc”, there are nog big manufacturers that are backing this movement) its not logical that a new type of ICE is going to be developed for F1. I think it’s more a political move or fantasy as we all transition into electric motors.
But we are judging this on todays I.C.E. If we can develop a very low (I am not going to say no as it will not happen) emission unit and also renewable fuel to 'burn' in it things may change. If it going to happen, the most likely place is in F1
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it-
Voltaire, or several other claimants.