Regenerative systems (KERS)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
riff_raff
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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I would imagine that attaching the KERS to the trans would be a better solution. You would have the dampening provided by the clutch to protect the KERS. The torsional vibration environment at the crankshaft can be quite severe, especially with a low inertia (low flywheel mass) racing engine. The large peak-to-mean instantaneous torque variations (and angular acceleration/deceleration) throughout a crank rotation would cause havoc with a high rotational inertia device like a kinetic flywheel.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

Scania
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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The Flybrid system Ltd said they have a contract with a F1 team in Birmingham Autosports show, but didn't said which team they will work together....

but, all we know that...

Ferrari:electric
Malaren:electric
Renault:Alonso said they will use electric
BMW:electric
RedBull:I can't imagine that Flybrid system need fireman
Williams:Flywheel with electric
India:Malaren's
Honda:no confirmed news, but the put a high voltage stick on their car in the test after BMW's worker was shocked, so they should use electric

so, only Toyota & STR was not confirmed......

BorisTheBlade
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Sad to write that down over and over again but even the flywheel systems won't be pure mechanical systems. They will also use electricity to transport the energy from the storage to the drive train. BMW is also rumoured to use a flywheel as storage. Or take a look at Bosch's system: It's an electric system but you have the choice to use either a battery OR a flywheel to store the energy.

Scania
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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BorisTheBlade wrote:Sad to write that down over and over again but even the flywheel systems won't be pure mechanical systems. They will also use electricity to transport the energy from the storage to the drive train. BMW is also rumoured to use a flywheel as storage. Or take a look at Bosch's system: It's an electric system but you have the choice to use either a battery OR a flywheel to store the energy.
You are talking about Borch & Williams's system, but Flybrid is a pure mechanical systems.
http://www.flybridsystems.com/
http://www.flybridsystems.com/resources ... +small.png

Scania
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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from Q&A with Ron Dennis:
Q. Some of your competitors have said they have got a handle on KERS, and other have said they haven't. Where do McLaren stand on this technology? Have you got to grips with it?

RD: We think we are very strong. We spent a lot of time analyzing which particular technology we would follow. In the end, we decided to follow an electro-mechanical system. So far, the work that has been done by Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines and ourselves has gone very well. We have had very few real difficult parts of the programme. It is all extremely challenging, and it is cutting edge technology. There is nowhere you can buy this technology. You have to invent, develop, design and prove out everything, because whilst the principles of energy recovery are well known to everybody, actually the execution of it in high performance vehicles is virtually unknown. We think we are in a strong position but only time will tell. Certainly the first grand prix will give an indication, but as always in grand prix racing it will be two or three races before a pattern starts to emerge.

that means Mclaren's system is same for Borch & Williams? :shock:

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Flybrid would have been entirely mechanical but it seems it is out of the running. I still have a nagging feeling this may have been something to do with sealing and lubricating the flywheel driveshaft bearing, the pressure difference between inside the vacuum casing and atmospheric pressure outside may have too much to overcome in time for the start of the season.
Williams (and others using the flywheel I imagine) won't have that problem because it has no moving parts exiting the vacuum, they draw power out via electrical means.
I guess there would have been a trade off in efficiency vs purely mechanical though due to mechanical-electrical-knetic-electrical-mechanical conversion....

To sumarise then (please correct me if i'm wrong) -

There are 2 basic approaches:

Both systems will use an alternator/generator, driven, most likely directly from an engine or gearbox shaft to collect/return electrical power into the drivetrain.

1 system will store electrical energy in batteries.

1 system will use the electrical energy to drive a flywheel (set up somewhat like a brushless motor) later bleeding off speed from the to create electricity.

?????

Scania
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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safeaschuck wrote:Flybrid would have been entirely mechanical but it seems it is out of the running. I still have a nagging feeling this may have been something to do with sealing and lubricating the flywheel driveshaft bearing, the pressure difference between inside the vacuum casing and atmospheric pressure outside may have too much to overcome in time for the start of the season.
Williams (and others using the flywheel I imagine) won't have that problem because it has no moving parts exiting the vacuum, they draw power out via electrical means.
I guess there would have been a trade off in efficiency vs purely mechanical though due to mechanical-electrical-knetic-electrical-mechanical conversion....

To sumarise then (please correct me if i'm wrong) -

There are 2 basic approaches:

Both systems will use an alternator/generator, driven, most likely directly from an engine or gearbox shaft to collect/return electrical power into the drivetrain.

1 system will store electrical energy in batteries.

1 system will use the electrical energy to drive a flywheel (set up somewhat like a brushless motor) later bleeding off speed from the to create electricity.

?????
have you read the draw of Flybrid system Ltd?
why they need a CVT if they drive by electric?
Image

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Hey Scania! Alright?
I was saying there, at the top of my post that FLYBRID IS/WAS mechanical, NO electrics at all! Therefore it requires a CVT.

However for reasons of technology, economy or politics it seems that no-one will be using flybrid for 2009 season.

Instead...
WILLIAMS have published details of their OWN system, DIFFERENT to flybrid, which has a flywheel but is not mechanical.
See.. http://www.williamshybridpower.com/technology/ Thanks White blue.

Here are some recently announced Bosch electrical flywheels, 4 off to counter gyroscopic effect. These seem to be aimed more at Le-mans etc. but they give an idea.
Image

Scania
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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safeaschuck wrote:Hey Scania! Alright?
I was saying there, at the top of my post that FLYBRID IS/WAS mechanical, NO electrics at all! Therefore it requires a CVT.

However for reasons of technology, economy or politics it seems that no-one will be using flybrid for 2009 season.
however, Flybrid system ltd said they have contract with one F1 team in Birmingham Motor Show

as I know, Bosch's system can storage 700kj, not suitbale on F1 Rule if it can't tune down the power storage.

and than, Mclaren maybe also use Flywheel electric designed by theirselves (or MES)

Scania
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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BMW's kers is theirselves or Magneti Mareli?

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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I Hope I'm wrong and 3 fundamentally different designs go head to head, I happen to like the Flybrid idea best and from what little I know it would have the least losses of all the systems AND be far more environmentally freindly than throwing away a battery pack after every outing, but...

Although I must admit I haven't trawled for the transcript of their annoucement, Flybrid annoucing a contract with an F1 team is not like saying they are exclusive suppliers of KERS Technology to an F1 team.
It could have been that they are performing R&D with or for that team, It could mean they are manufacturing or have licensed part of their design to that team.

If the deal was for the whole syatem; for the team to honour that contract Flybrid would need to have a working system to sell them by the agreed date of delivery. Also the team in question could have signed multiple contracts with seperate KERS suppliers with a veiw to evaluating the different designs, eventually selecting one for use in the '09 season.

Lets hope for all three though eh? Thats what it's all about!

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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While I'm on a roll I'd like to predict the demise of all flywheel KERS for the following reasons.
Main one being, when adapted for road car use a flywheel cannot be left for 2 weeks then driven off like a petrol car, SO batteries or an alternative energy source will be required anyway.
When building in all the architecture for, lets say, battery based power storage, car manufacturers are not going to then install a second completly seperate system like a flywheel, they'll simply throw more batteries in there, they will already be ordering them in huge quantities anyway right?
Developing better battery cells, power controllers and charging systems is going to be a priority for the people who pay for F1.
I also happen to think that the complex undertaking of mass producing a 100,000rpm flywheel in a bomb proof vacuum sealed case will be a short lived venture for car manufacturers, if it ever gets off the ground. There already factories all over the world churning out batteries aren't there? Where are the factories producing 50 million flywheels a year going to come from?
Plus, how much weight do you think the high speed flywheel manufacturers association has in the corridors of power... as much as Mr Samsung or Mr Panasonic?
Plus battery dosen't have a gyroscopic effect and, within reason can be installed in a great variety of shapes and positions which makes the whole thing easier (and cheaper) to package (or at least I'm guessing thats the way R&D depts would look at it).
It a sad shame.
That and a certain red car looks like it will be using batteries for the '09 season, meaning flywheels will only be tolerated if they cannot be blamed for a lack of ferrari victories :)
Only joking of couse!
What does everyone else reckon? Is the flywheel the Betamax of the powertrain world?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Today its in the news that Red Bull have abandoned their own KERS R&D. They will get it from Renault (MM).
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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That would indeed make certain sense, developing not one, but two different KERS systems for the same engine is perhaps a little over the top. Does anybody know if Williams and Toyota has a cooperation on KERS as they seem to have had on the seamless-shift gearbox?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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No, they don't. Williams are developing their own system with electric flywheel storage. Toyota were saying that they will probably not have a system for the first races. Unless they have a secret deal with Williams and know that Williams are late these two positions will not fit.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)