F1 Brake Discs

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
tarzoon
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by tarzoon » Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:08 pm

"Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2004 12:59 pm"

:lol: :lol: :lol:

riff_raff
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by riff_raff » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:54 am

wmm,

CRC brake systems are much different than a conventional brake system with ferrous rotor discs.

Firstly, the function of any braking system is to convert the kinetic energy of the vehicle into thermal energy via friction, and dissipate that thermal energy into the passing airflow as quickly as possible, without exceeding the thermal capacity of the brake system components. CRC brakes are sized according to how much thermal mass (specific heat) they require to stay within a specific temperature under braking.

CRC brake rotors have advantages over ferrous brake rotors due to the fact that they are less dense and can sustain much higher temperatures without structural failure. CRC rotors also have the unique property that their coefficient of friction increases with temperature, as opposed to ferrous rotors that do the opposite.

As for happily operating at 1000 degC, this is not entirely true. CRC materials begin to oxidise at those temperatures, so they do have limits. The trick with CRC brakes and clutches is that they tend to have a tendency to grip like an "on-off" switch, and are very difficult to modulate.

The reason F1 cars go through so many sets of CRC brakes is that they are designed (in thickness) to last exactly one race distance. The pads and rotors are made from the same materials, and wear equally over the course of a race.

Regards,
riff raff
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Belatti
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by Belatti » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:23 pm

riff_raff wrote: The reason F1 cars go through so many sets of CRC brakes is that they are designed (in thickness) to last exactly one race distance. The pads and rotors are made from the same materials, and wear equally over the course of a race.
Also in local race series, where iron rotors are used, they use qualy rotors and race rotors, mainly cause a matter of unsprung weight savings.
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marcush.
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by marcush. » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:32 pm

autogyro wrote:Simple on F1.
Do away with the IC engine and replace it with a large flywheel storage unit.
Then bring back Kers.
Brakes sorted.
Simple innit.
i love that idea.unfortunatelly no engine sound anymore-- :o

ah yes those brembos are of course also available in Porsche cars.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:56 am

How is the production car carbon Ceramic different from the Formula 1 carbon disk? as in, the material ingredients.
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marcush.
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by marcush. » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:26 am

n smikle wrote:How is the production car carbon Ceramic different from the Formula 1 carbon disk? as in, the material ingredients.
here some basic info.

http://www.technology-forum.com/fileadm ... _discs.pdf

meves
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by meves » Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:23 pm

A related but slightly off topic question. Could F1 brakes be made sealed so that only a specified volume of air per second was allow to pass over them for cooling. This could be restricted to be safe but to mean after repeated full use the brakes would begin fade but with management the brakes would be fine. If the driver had to manage the brakes it may make the braking distances longer hopefully making the racing more interesting....

Belatti
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by Belatti » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:49 pm

Again, braking capability and so distances does not depend directly from the brake system, but from vertical load and its variation, tyre and road characteristics.

What a good brake system does is to repeat its performance along a race and to have a stable predictable torque during the braking.

See this pic, from a cast iron disc aplication:
Image

The mu generally goes up as the disc and pad raises temp through time. A flat mu curve through time is desired so the driver knows what happens when he push the brake with "X" amount of force from his feet and he doesnt have to guess whats gonna happen, he havent got the time to think "Oh the mu is going up!!"...

Also, for this to happen its very important that the plane in wich the disc is rotating is... plane. Also the calipers must be well aligned to this plane so the pads wear in an even way and there is no kickback pressure. You really can see this in data acquisition when a system is not well aligned.

Then there are other factors like selecting pedal ratio and caliper and pumps bores diameters in order to see if you gonna transmit force with a system with "more pressure or more flow" and other secondary things as brake lines lenghts... (You know, at those time Mr. Arquimedes didnt have the measuring instruments we have got now...)
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

PlatinumZealot
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:13 am

marcush. wrote:
n smikle wrote:How is the production car carbon Ceramic different from the Formula 1 carbon disk? as in, the material ingredients.
here some basic info.

http://www.technology-forum.com/fileadm ... _discs.pdf
So the carbon fibre is the reinforcing material for the Silicon Carbide Silicon Carbon . So to recap, The carbon fibres give the tensile strength and they still remain strong at high temperatures. zeen.. I never looked on the carbon brakes as a carbon reinforced material before. (before this, I thought it was just a mishmash of ceramic and carbon stuff :oops: ) good article.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Edis
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by Edis » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:39 pm

n smikle wrote:
marcush. wrote:
n smikle wrote:How is the production car carbon Ceramic different from the Formula 1 carbon disk? as in, the material ingredients.
here some basic info.

http://www.technology-forum.com/fileadm ... _discs.pdf
So the carbon fibre is the reinforcing material for the Silicon Carbide Silicon Carbon . So to recap, The carbon fibres give the tensile strength and they still remain strong at high temperatures. zeen.. I never looked on the carbon brakes as a carbon reinforced material before. (before this, I thought it was just a mishmash of ceramic and carbon stuff :oops: ) good article.
Production cars use carbon fibre reinforced silicon carbide brake discs. F1 use carbon fibre reinforced carbon discs - no ceramics involved there.

archebald23
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by archebald23 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:48 am

meves wrote:A related but slightly off topic question. Could F1 brakes be made sealed so that only a specified volume of air per second was allow to pass over them for cooling. This could be restricted to be safe but to mean after repeated full use the brakes would begin fade but with management the brakes would be fine. If the driver had to manage the brakes it may make the braking distances longer hopefully making the racing more interesting....
are you referring to air braking system which are mainly used in large vehicles? The considerable inertial mass of these heavy-duty vehicles in combination with the high speeds at which they travel require a braking system which responds rapidly with substantial braking power.

I think it is due to the weight of this brake disc kit why it is not used on racing cars.

MuseF1
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by MuseF1 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:04 am

archebald23 wrote:
meves wrote:A related but slightly off topic question. Could F1 brakes be made sealed so that only a specified volume of air per second was allow to pass over them for cooling. This could be restricted to be safe but to mean after repeated full use the brakes would begin fade but with management the brakes would be fine. If the driver had to manage the brakes it may make the braking distances longer hopefully making the racing more interesting....
are you referring to air braking system which are mainly used in large vehicles? The considerable inertial mass of these heavy-duty vehicles in combination with the high speeds at which they travel require a braking system which responds rapidly with substantial braking power.

I think it is due to the weight of this brake disc kit why it is not used on racing cars.
Hmm i think he is talking about limiting the brake cooling inlets so that cooling isnt so efficient.

I think it would be hard to gauge because different tracks need different requirements, so it would be hard to limit them safely without standardising all the teams brake systems?

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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by mx_tifoso » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:34 am

MuseF1 wrote:Hmm i think he is talking about limiting the brake cooling inlets so that cooling isnt so efficient.

I think it would be hard to gauge because different tracks need different requirements, so it would be hard to limit them safely without standardising all the teams brake systems?
Wouldn't it be like restrictor plates in other series?

They change the sizes for different engines and tracks.

-1 on the idea though.
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syndony
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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by syndony » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:20 am

I suspect that inboard brakes in a modern F1 vehicle would require solutions to be found for several potential issues. A braking event is quite violent, so a structural engineer would like the torque tube to be stiff (hence large diameter) to avoid dynamic problems caused by the torque tube "winding up". On the other hand, an aerodynamicist would like the torque tube not to interfere with airflow, so he would like a small diameter tube (hence flexible). The unsprung weight reduction would be offset, to some extent, by the need to add a strong CVJ at either end of the torque tube. Cooling would be an issue that might be solved by water-cooling, but that solution would carry with it a weight overhead. Finally, there is not too much room at either axle to package inboard brakes in a modern F1 chassis

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Re: F1 Brake Discs

Post by autogyro » Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:14 pm

syndony wrote:I suspect that inboard brakes in a modern F1 vehicle would require solutions to be found for several potential issues. A braking event is quite violent, so a structural engineer would like the torque tube to be stiff (hence large diameter) to avoid dynamic problems caused by the torque tube "winding up". On the other hand, an aerodynamicist would like the torque tube not to interfere with airflow, so he would like a small diameter tube (hence flexible). The unsprung weight reduction would be offset, to some extent, by the need to add a strong CVJ at either end of the torque tube. Cooling would be an issue that might be solved by water-cooling, but that solution would carry with it a weight overhead. Finally, there is not too much room at either axle to package inboard brakes in a modern F1 chassis
Of course if we started to design ways to convert this brake heat directly into electrical energy, then that would be a whole new ball game would it not?