2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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godlameroso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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At high temperatures nitrogen dissociates with oxygen and can lead to formation of ammonia and if there's chlorine present can form hydrogen chlorides, or nitrogen tri-chloride. Telltale sign would be a green tinge to the combustion.
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3jawchuck
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:21 pm
At high temperatures nitrogen dissociates with oxygen and can lead to formation of ammonia and if there's chlorine present can form hydrogen chlorides, or nitrogen tri-chloride. Telltale sign would be a green tinge to the combustion.
Thanks for the reply.
Is this likely to be happening in these engines? Is there anything to be gained by this or would it just be a byproduct of the combustion method that is in use? Surely to gain anything from this there would have to be something added to the combustion?

Sorry for any dumb questions, but this is not at all my field :)

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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Ted described a smell of raw paraffin coming from the Ferrari engine last year. Could that be what causes this kind of smell?

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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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3jawchuck wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:40 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:21 pm
At high temperatures nitrogen dissociates with oxygen and can lead to formation of ammonia and if there's chlorine present can form hydrogen chlorides, or nitrogen tri-chloride. Telltale sign would be a green tinge to the combustion.
Thanks for the reply.
Is this likely to be happening in these engines? Is there anything to be gained by this or would it just be a byproduct of the combustion method that is in use? Surely to gain anything from this there would have to be something added to the combustion?

Sorry for any dumb questions, but this is not at all my field :)
Could be possibly used to add extra energy to the turbine IF you could get it to work.
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godlameroso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:43 pm
Ted described a smell of raw paraffin coming from the Ferrari engine last year. Could that be what causes this kind of smell?
Could indicate the presence of hydrazines? Maybe banking on the formation of some hydrazine nitrate during the combustion process?

Just realized FIA relies on ASTM testing, which is just spectroscopy, it's not hard to fool such a system if you understand how they analyze for the properties they prescribe for in the regulations.
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Maritimer
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Hydrazine formation would make a bit of power wouldn't it? I remember an interview with an old drag builder talking about people getting hospitalized just watching the fuelers when they topped with it. Good ol rocket fuel :lol:
Last edited by Maritimer on Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Maritimer wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:36 pm
Hydrazine formation would make a bit of power wouldn't it? I remember an interview with an old drag builder talking about people getting hospitalized just watching the fuelers when they topped with it. Good ol rocket fuel :lol:
Depends, I suppose it could help if you treat it like seasoning instead of a marinade, so to speak.
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Maritimer
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:42 pm
Maritimer wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:36 pm
Hydrazine formation would make a bit of power wouldn't it? I remember an interview with an old drag builder talking about people getting hospitalized just watching the fuelers when they topped with it. Good ol rocket fuel :lol:
Depends, I suppose it could help if you treat it like seasoning instead of a marinade, so to speak.
Oh for sure, iirc the drag cars ran with around 2% hydrazine to whatever the base fuel was, not sure if they used nitro then or not, 5% could kill you if you got too many fumes. Not to mention it's penchant for detonating and blowing the whole car up!

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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Just remembered something, there was a company that had a lubricating snake oil, prolong I recall. They got into trouble because they had chlorinated compounds that would corrode some engine bearings. However as far a snake oils go it actually was a decent lubricant.
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63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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gruntguru wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:05 am
Up-votes to Mudflap and Henry for quality effort.

It is theoretically possible to estimate drag losses from the acceleration data, since aero drag power loss is proportional to (approx) velocity cubed, while acceleration is proportional to whatever-power-remains, divided by velocity. So if there were no losses, the acceleration at 300 km/hr would be half the acceleration at 150 km/hr and the same engine power. If we introduce aerodynamic drag the acceleration at 300 will be less than half the acceleration 150 - how much less will depend on Cd.A.

Other complicating factors include inertia of rotating parts. Final drive and wheels simply increase the apparent mass of the car. Moving parts (including pistons, con-rods, valves etc) upstream of the gearbox will increase the apparent mass of the car by an amount which is larger (proportional to overall gear ratio squared) and dependent on the gear selected. So the car has more inertia in the lower gears.

johnny - when the car is traction limited, the acceleration is no different whether there is 500 hp available to spin the tyres or 5000 so this part of the acceleration profile cannot be used to calculate effective power.
At a first glance it appears possible to estimate both drag and inertia with a similar method to what you suggest provided either of them is known. That was the reason I suggested it would be interesting to look at low speed full power data.

So for drag we can use a generic term for the constants f=rho*Cd*A. Choosing two points, one at peak power low speed, one at peak power high speed we can write v1(m*a1+f*v1^2)=v2(m*a2+f*v2^2) and re-arrange to get f=m*(v2*a2-v1*a1)/(v1^3-V2^3).

Similarly, to calculate inertia we can pick a low gear peak power point (which gives high driveline acceleration) and a high gear peak power point. The assumption here is that inertia does not vary with gear ratio (which it totally does, but I think not by much as a fraction of total lumped driveline inertia). Writing the power at both points as the sum of the power required to accelerate the car against drag (F*v) and the power required to accelerate the driveline (I*a*w) at a given speed we can write F1*v1+I*a1*w=F2*v2+I*a2*w and re-arrage to get I=(F2v2-F1v1)/(w*(a1-a2)). Here F is the sum of the inertial and drag loads, w is engine angular velocity and a is engine angular acceleration.

I might try to do a slow speed point (and also check the math) this weekend if I get the time and no one beats me to it.

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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:20 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:05 am
Up-votes to Mudflap and Henry for quality effort.

It is theoretically possible to estimate drag losses from the acceleration data, since aero drag power loss is proportional to (approx) velocity cubed, while acceleration is proportional to whatever-power-remains, divided by velocity. So if there were no losses, the acceleration at 300 km/hr would be half the acceleration at 150 km/hr and the same engine power. If we introduce aerodynamic drag the acceleration at 300 will be less than half the acceleration 150 - how much less will depend on Cd.A.

Other complicating factors include inertia of rotating parts. Final drive and wheels simply increase the apparent mass of the car. Moving parts (including pistons, con-rods, valves etc) upstream of the gearbox will increase the apparent mass of the car by an amount which is larger (proportional to overall gear ratio squared) and dependent on the gear selected. So the car has more inertia in the lower gears.

johnny - when the car is traction limited, the acceleration is no different whether there is 500 hp available to spin the tyres or 5000 so this part of the acceleration profile cannot be used to calculate effective power.
At a first glance it appears possible to estimate both drag and inertia with a similar method to what you suggest provided either of them is known. That was the reason I suggested it would be interesting to look at low speed full power data.

So for drag we can use a generic term for the constants f=rho*Cd*A. Choosing two points, one at peak power low speed, one at peak power high speed we can write v1(m*a1+f*v1^2)=v2(m*a2+f*v2^2) and re-arrange to get f=m*(v2*a2-v1*a1)/(v1^3-V2^3).

Similarly, to calculate inertia we can pick a low gear peak power point (which gives high driveline acceleration) and a high gear peak power point. The assumption here is that inertia does not vary with gear ratio (which it totally does, but I think not by much as a fraction of total lumped driveline inertia). Writing the power at both points as the sum of the power required to accelerate the car against drag (F*v) and the power required to accelerate the driveline (I*a*w) at a given speed we can write F1*v1+I*a1*w=F2*v2+I*a2*w and re-arrage to get I=(F2v2-F1v1)/(w*(a1-a2)). Here F is the sum of the inertial and drag loads, w is engine angular velocity and a is engine angular acceleration.

I might try to do a slow speed point (and also check the math) this weekend if I get the time and no one beats me to it.
Looks very interesting.

I don’t think you need to use peak power, or one high and one low speed. If we assume that in a given mode the PU produces the same shape to its power curve you can just pick an engine speed and a pair of gears for your calculations. Two consecutive gears would reduce the effect of the variation in Cd with speed and rotating inertia with gear ratio. Two pairs of ratios might give some insight into the variation in Cd.

You might want to be cautious using qualifying laps since on any given straight they might use more than one deployment mode and hence power, which would spoil your methodology.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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significant NOx is produced (by burning monatomic nitrogen) only at high temperatures sustained for some millisec
only such conditions produce combustible monatomic nitrogen from atmospheric (non-combustible) diatomic nitrogen

11000 rpm running of a (heat dilution) F1 engine won't produce much NOx as in-cylinder temps & time will be low
the high boost used to give abnormally high AFR is what gives heat dilution ie abnormally low power stroke temperatures
these temperatures are even low enough to avoid (undesirable) dissociation in fuel carbon and hydrogen combustion reactions

operation to use nitrogen as free fuel would cost more energy via losing the efficiency of heat dilution than it would gain

'BUT' QUESTION - is there a volume change by diatomic nitrogen when becoming monatomic nitrogen ??
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I agree, it can be any operating point provided that the engine output is the same and there is a delta V for drag calcs and a delta a for driveline inertia.

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godlameroso
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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:19 pm
significant NOx is produced (by burning monatomic nitrogen) only at high temperatures sustained for some millisec
only such conditions produce combustible monatomic nitrogen from atmospheric (non-combustible) diatomic nitrogen

11000 rpm running of a (heat dilution) F1 engine won't produce much NOx as in-cylinder temps & time will be low
the high boost used to give abnormally high AFR is what gives heat dilution ie abnormally low power stroke temperatures
these temperatures are even low enough to avoid (undesirable) dissociation in fuel carbon and hydrogen combustion reactions


operation to use nitrogen as free fuel would cost more energy via losing the efficiency of heat dilution than it would gain
What about high flame temperature and rapid combustion, but low convective transfer of flame temps due to air dilution. In other words the large air mass creates an insulative layer for the heat generated. So even though the sensors pick up low combustion temperatures in cylinder they may not correspond to the actual flame kinetics. Much like the thermosphere has high temperatures but low convection, however in that case it's from a lack of density, which is the opposite of what I imagine is happening here.

To recap: combustion temperatures may be very high, but the speed of the combustion and the massive air dilution means that the combustion process doesn't last long enough to radiate it's energy to it's surrounding environment in cylinder. The sensors pick it up as low combustion temperatures, despite high quantities of NOx etc.
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gruntguru
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:24 pm
as the cars have no CVT time spent between 10500 and 12000 ish rpm dominates race performance
fuelling eg at 95 kg/hr at 10500 and 100 kg/hr at 11500 is more efficient as AFR & boost are near optimal throughout
fuelling at 100 kg/hr at 10500 and 11500 does not allow optimal AFR & boost throughout

this might not apply at lower speeds ie ripping through the gears, when brief and small fuel accumulations are possible
Even if they use the maximum fueling permitted throughout the rpm range (and my gut feel is that is what they do, whenever they are not in conservation mode) you would still expect the power peak to be somewhere above 10,500. Common sense says the physical engine design parameters would be optimised for an engine speed somewhere in the middle of the range to be used - lets say 11,500. If they optimised for 10,500 the peak power would be higher but the band where power was better would only extend approximately from 10,500 to 11,000 - everywhere above that would be worse.
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