Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Nuvolari_the_legend
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Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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I have a go-kart myself, 160cc 4 stroke 6hp Honda engine and Kombikart frame at the moment and next year moving to 200cc 4 stroke 15hp World Formula with Kombikart or Mari frame, and I was wondering why go-karts don't use electronic valve systems.

Does anybody know why?
"Tazio Nuvolari was the greatest driver of the past, the present and the future."
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flynfrog
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Nuvolari_the_legend wrote:I have a go-kart myself, 160cc 4 stroke 6hp Honda engine and Kombikart frame at the moment and next year moving to 200cc 4 stroke 15hp World Formula with Kombikart or Mari frame, and I was wondering why go-karts don't use electronic valve systems.

Does anybody know why?
Not sure what electronic valves have to do with carbs but the answer is the same. $$$ a simple ECU will cost about the same as your honda engine. Then you also need to have at throttle body injector tps ect. Adding more and more cost. Now you need a laptop to tune it. $$. The honda stator probably isn't ECU friendly so more money. So once you have all that you have a very small if any gain in performance.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Well, once upon a time kart engines were free for all. Nowadays, they aren't. Engines are quite restricted. When they could have used electronic valves they weren't common. Now, when electronic valves are common, engines cannot use them, because of the cost.

http://www.cikfia.com/discover/practica ... ories.html
Ciro

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flynfrog
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Well, once upon a time kart engines were free for all. Nowadays, they aren't. Engines are quite restricted. When they could have used electronic valves they weren't common. Now, when electronic valves are common, engines cannot use them, because of the cost.

http://www.cikfia.com/discover/practica ... ories.html
when they could have used electric valves nobody wasted time on 4 stroke tractor motors 8)

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Nuvolari_the_legend
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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flynfrog wrote:
Ciro Pabón wrote:Well, once upon a time kart engines were free for all. Nowadays, they aren't. Engines are quite restricted. When they could have used electronic valves they weren't common. Now, when electronic valves are common, engines cannot use them, because of the cost.

http://www.cikfia.com/discover/practica ... ories.html
when they could have used electric valves nobody wasted time on 4 stroke tractor motors 8)
This is only partly true because the 4 stroke 250 cc vampires are not even so much slower, on a small circuit much faster than the 2 stroke 125 cc shifters.

Why I asked this is because there is something to win hire if it was legal. It is because with valves being electronic you can tune things a lot better. If you go to a company that could tune this for you and you get really advanced electronics that can inject 8 times where a normal one used nowdays could only do one you will run more economicly and more important, faster.
"Tazio Nuvolari was the greatest driver of the past, the present and the future."
Ferdinand Porsche

Ogami musashi
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Karting World is just anti innovation. Look at how a race kart is done today, the technologies are in principle the same as 20 years ago...even in the highest classes (KZ1 and KF1) the tubs are still handmade...There is very little sign of proper R&D in karts. It is mostly by trial and error and manufacturers do not try anything revolutionnary because:

1/they spent so much time doing trial and error than bringing a new technology takes forever to be mastered
2/the Kartmen are the most anti innovation people i've ever seen to the point that if someone tries to bring something new he's automatically labelled as a "karting damaging people".

Hey here in france there's an initiative to bring back 100cc engines (fine..those engines were definitely funier than rotax&co) while freezing any preparation for it, forcing hard tires, no front brakes etc...

Now there is and there was some experimental work. For exemple in aero some manufacturers ordered some CFD and wind tunnel studes in so as to try and bring downforce§reduction in drag in karting. But none of the studies went past initial CFD run or Base line straight line speed (I.E: without anya design development).
BRC engineering which makes very fines kart engine recently bench tested and EFI engine...but similarly the their very good BRC 150CC engine they will never run through the FIA/CIK homologation process because they know it will never work.


Same in the 80's, there used to be an experimental class and some kart drivers tested with radials tires, semi differentials etc... All of this promptly banned by the governing bodies right then.


If you want progress and innovation...don't look at karts.

Richard
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Limiting innovation means the karts in the same class have comparable performance which means driver skills have greater impact. Otherwise the winner will be the person who can afford the latest technology.

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flynfrog
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Nuvolari_the_legend wrote:
This is only partly true because the 4 stroke 250 cc vampires are not even so much slower, on a small circuit much faster than the 2 stroke 125 cc shifters.

Why I asked this is because there is something to win hire if it was legal. It is because with valves being electronic you can tune things a lot better. If you go to a company that could tune this for you and you get really advanced electronics that can inject 8 times where a normal one used nowdays could only do one you will run more economicly and more important, faster.

When you are saying valves do you really mean fuel injectors? I don't think anyone is arguing that fuel injection could be faster but it does drive up costs significantly. As others have pointed out karting is more for driver development than it is for engine technology. Here in the states we have the RWYB class with pretty open rules. Must be a kart, driver must be of a certain age. thats pretty much it.

Ogami musashi
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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richard_leeds wrote:Limiting innovation means the karts in the same class have comparable performance which means driver skills have greater impact. Otherwise the winner will be the person who can afford the latest technology.
Sorry but i think you're misleading here. First of all you need not to confuse innovation and multi brand. In karting many categories are mutlibrand and thus you have already the gear aspect and it accounts already a lot.

Second, do you find it normal that KF1, the highest class in karting, which is a world championship with a 100,000€ budget for a season/driver, and that is only the driver budget, with almost only works teams in it thus enormous budgets, with up to 5-10 chassis spent during a sole race week end , dozens of soft coumpound tires trashed after only 5 laps, prepared engines etc... results in karts going only 1 second/lap faster than a rotax....

Third do not confuse innovation with Spec formula. You can have a spec formula with high technology in it. Currently Karts are definitely not high tech. Neither in the design or the manufacturing/testing/developping processes.

krisfx
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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flynfrog wrote:
Ciro Pabón wrote:Well, once upon a time kart engines were free for all. Nowadays, they aren't. Engines are quite restricted. When they could have used electronic valves they weren't common. Now, when electronic valves are common, engines cannot use them, because of the cost.

http://www.cikfia.com/discover/practica ... ories.html
when they could have used electric valves nobody wasted time on 4 stroke tractor motors 8)
=D>

I was thinking the same thing, two stroke all the way for me, but yeah it's gotta be costs and the fact that if it ain't broke don't fix it. Karting has worked well to provide driver talent for a long time, making it more expensive and adding useless innovations to it would make it more about wallet over talent, although to some degree you still need a big wallet haha.

malikobay
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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krisfx wrote:
flynfrog wrote:
Ciro Pabón wrote:Well, once upon a time kart engines were free for all. Nowadays, they aren't. Engines are quite restricted. When they could have used electronic valves they weren't common. Now, when electronic valves are common, engines cannot use them, because of the cost.

htfuel injection is available on most motocross engines, 4 stroke and a kawasaki 450 fuel injected makes 50hp and cost new 8 g.
aprilia makes a V-twin 550 injectd since years.
cost and tecnology are there.

lesstp://www.cikfia.com/discover/practical-guide ... ories.html
when they could have used electric valves nobody wasted time on 4 stroke tractor motors 8)
=D>

I was thinking the same thing, two stroke all the way for me, but yeah it's gotta be costs and the fact that if it ain't broke don't fix it. Karting has worked well to provide driver talent for a long time, making it more expensive and adding useless innovations to it would make it more about wallet over talent, although to some degree you still need a big wallet haha.

SidSidney
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Ogami musashi wrote: Second, do you find it normal that KF1, the highest class in karting, which is a world championship with a 100,000€ budget for a season/driver, and that is only the driver budget, with almost only works teams in it thus enormous budgets, with up to 5-10 chassis spent during a sole race week end , dozens of soft coumpound tires trashed after only 5 laps, prepared engines etc... results in karts going only 1 second/lap faster than a rotax....
Karting has always been known as the 18000 rpm road to nowhere. Karting is a good initiation but to ever progress you need to get into cars. It's a training ground, and a way to make a living from a large pool of people with dreams, nothing more. You have to get into cars, win, and more importantly get financial backing to have a shot. Getting invited into a development programme like the old Marlboro or Renault driver development programmes were a great step if you ever want to get paid to drive a race car. Or you need to find a management contract, like Eddie Jordan used to offer, or Briatore, or the Robertsons. Nowadays Red Bull provides a ladder, so do McLaren.

I drive KZ2 (125cc gearbox) just for fun nowadays at a local track, keep it garaged there, just a bit of speed to get me away from the office - used to do FFord and F3 semi-professionally donkeys years ago, I was involved with all kinds of people back in the day - Dick Bennetts and Trevor Carlin at WSR, Jackie and Paul at PSR, Alan at ADR, Mark Bailey at MBR, Steve and Vic Hollman at Bowman, Fred Goddard, even Jordan at one point. Raced at a fairly serious level.

One name sticks out as a prime example: Terry Fullerton. Fullerton hammered Senna in karts, but never made the transition into cars, for a variety of reasons. Most people probably never heard of him. But he's probably the only driver Senna respected in his entire career:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYYIzDMJbpY
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SuperDrummer
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Ogami musashi wrote: Second, do you find it normal that KF1, the highest class in karting, which is a world championship with a 100,000€ budget for a season/driver, and that is only the driver budget, with almost only works teams in it thus enormous budgets, with up to 5-10 chassis spent during a sole race week end , dozens of soft coumpound tires trashed after only 5 laps, prepared engines etc... results in karts going only 1 second/lap faster than a rotax....
I'm afraid that you underestimate the budget - probably 4-5 times. Top drivers spend a lot, unless they are factory supported talents.

And I can be wrong in this, but I would say that the probability that smth should change within closest 5 years or so in both karting and junior formulae is pretty high. Unfortunately we lost tobacco sponsors due to political BS, and the motorsport world is still to find a proper replacement to support talented drivers. This makes the sport less and less attractive for the drivers without huge budget available, and drivers are the only sourse of money for the sport by the end of the day. Is this going to lead to technical progress or, vice versa, conservation or step back to "cut costs" (which NEVER works by the way)? I don't know. But I guess that current state of things is not going to last for a long time.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Well, I believe costs can be restricted if you put emphasis on learning to drive instead of emphasizing learning to engineer.

As it has been said many times in this forum, I think, race cars are NOT there for engineers to learn to create good street cars.

It's like breeding racing horses: it's not related in any manner with breeding cows.

Karts themselves are a prime example of cost reduction.

Thanks, Art! You saved the world a lot of money
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Although the WKC has become a different thing, as very intelligently explained in previous posts, most racers in this world (and by a large margin) race in karts.

There are more kart racers than racers in any other series.

They also take home all the chicks (at least I'm doing my part!)
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It's (and, hopefully, will be, notwithstanding the cynics of this world) the most economic form of racing, bar none.

I really, really love to teach karting to kids. It's always rewarding when you see when they understand.

It's important to teach them things people say they shouldn't learn.

Socrates was condemned for corrupting the youth: the best of the "five dangerous things you should teach to kids" is DRIVE
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And that's the true power and reason d'etre of karts. They are there to corrupt the youth, if you follow my drift.

I don't like adults racing in karts: they end asking for things like mo'money and fuel injection, believing that you race to win.
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You don't race for the win. You race for the wind.

At least that was what I understood from my new best friend (SidSidney) posts... =D>

Now, the question is why karts use carburetors. I said that it was because they were fixed in its current form when engines had carburetors, and that may be true.

However, those who believe that newer is better could ponder this:

1. Carburetors are unbeatable pound per pound and, for racing cars, they are more green.

It's very hard to find a better system that is cheaper. Industry has predicted the demise of carburetors for the last 20 years. Simple: a fuel injection kit for a racing car, mod at home, can cost you around 3.500 dollars.

This ad is only for the ECU: 2200 big bucks
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You can get a comparable carburetor for the same HP rating, let's say 400 hp, for 500 dollars.

And it's called Super Demon, fvck yeah!
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Moreover, you're spending perhaps 3000 dollars for an increase of what? 10 to 20 HP? Seriously?

An EFI makes sense on a car used for transportation. If you don't plan to race 15.000 km per year on your car, then it makes little sense to invest in an EFI. If you race a few races per year you will harm more mother nature by using a system, like an EFI, that uses more natural resources, when you take in account the metal, electronics, sensors and lines you need, made of rare metals, even if you consider that the "greenery" of racing cars is debatable in any racing form, to say the least.

Helping with Global Warming (at least half a degree, I would say)
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2. Carburetors are infinitely easier to adjust to tracks.

A re-jetting kit for a carburetor costs around 50 dollars. A preprogrammed (and fixed) EFI chips will set you back around 200 bucks. This amount buys you "a fuel map calibrated to exactly the specs that you gave the manufacturer without any margin for error".

Changing the EFI chip program needs a software that costs around 500 dollars or you have to send the chip back to the manufacturer. To modify a carburetor you just need a few needles and jets from your kit. So, in many tracks, carbs will beat EFIs, because EFIs cannot be adapted.

It's not rocket science: it's jet science
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Now, I've tuned a few carburetors in my life. I have to add that you don't have to change jets: a carburetor works because of pressure differential, not based on absolute pressure. I can use the same jets in Bogotá (2.600 m) and in Cali (700 m). So, let's this be a lesson if you tune a carb: change air bleeds or squirters, not jets. A carburetor is an amazing piece of equipment, it self adjust, believe it or not.

3. EFI systems are better for cheaters

It's infinitely easier to disguise a traction control system in an EMS for an EFI (what you call an ECU) than in a carburetor. Period.

I believe that's the main reason why NASCAR resists EFIs. Just look all the troubles F1 had with ECUs and the sorry solution they arrived to: outsource to McLaren.

I'm not in the mood to interrupt the party, but how many of you are suspicious of McLaren and Mercedes delivering such a good engine and having the monopoly on the ECUs?

Designed by NSA?
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Yeah, I know. Nag me. Today I feel like Snowden, anyway. Let's truth kill me! 8)

4. EFIs are for noobs

Frankly, a person that can tune a carburetor is a much better engineer than a EFI tuner. EFI tuning is for novices, for people that rely on machines to do their work.

Frankly, I know not many of you would appreciate this kind of art, but, hey, if you print it in a printer, is still a marketable paint? No, it's a photography. It's an entirely different animal and it has its space, but painting still exists. So carburetors.

Anyone can learn to tune an EFI but I believe there must be two or three persons that are able to tune a carb in ProStock racing. Yeah, I know, some people will think this is a disadvantage for carbs. Cowards! :)

David Reher, artist. Technique: carburetor
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5. Carbs produce as much power

Power is a matter of flow and distribution. Even if you can tune individual cylinders with an EFI I see no disadvantage beyond fuel economy in EFIs. And fuel economy and racing go together at LeMans and (nowadays, forced) in F1.

A carb’s difference in pressure throught the throat is the undisputed king of the world for atomizing a gas. There is NO WAY you can achieve the same atomizing power from spraying fuel through a hole.

However, EFI is better at individual cylinder distribution. Thus, carbs have a narrow power band (1500 rpm vs 2000 or more for EFIs).

Both systems, when optimized, will carry you at the same speed, to be frank, and if someone disagrees I would like to see his credentials... :D

6. EFIs will never go down in price.

Yes, the main cost of an EFI is the ECU. It should go down in price, as is an electronic device. Moore Law, right?

Yeah, right. More functions are added! The price is the same. Keynes beats Moore any day.
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7. EFIs are for small d1cks, erm, I mean, small engines.

Yes, I know Americans. They all think that European cars have the engine of an electric pencil sharpener and are able to accommodate two or three midgets and a Chihuahua and that's the family car.

Formula One grid,according to people racing in Pocono
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Of course, that's not true. As an Spaniard that lives in South America I'm an amphibian in terms of racing, so I can say Americans are mistaken when they say engines in Europe and Japan are minuscule. They are not, they're simply diminutive.

Now, if you go over 2000 HP, the learning curve in EFIs is horrible. No Top Fuel car uses an EFI, AFAIK.

Let's replace the carburetor with an EFI! What could go wrong?
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8. Safety fuel lines

In some racing circles an engine driven fuel pump is preferable over an electric fuel pump that can keep running after the accident has happened.

Well, that's about it.

I couldn't imagine or invent any more arguments, thanks heaven
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Yes, I know many arguments do not apply to karts, but if you've reached this point without fainting or throwing away your computer, perhaps you understand why a plate and a tube with a reduction has moved a world for one hundred years and counting.

However, I have to concede that EFIs are unbeatable in terms of fuel eficiency, ability to deliver an economy car that delivers hundreds of HPs and they are better for the guy who want to learn new things in this century number 21.

But make no mistake, they're not an easy beast to tame when you're starting to race.

Ergo, karts will have carbs for a couple decades more, I guess, until kids learn to program the ECU in kindergarten. That day, let's be frank, hasn't happened yet and perhaps will never happen.

For example, raise your hands those of you able to tune an ECU.

"It's leviOsa, not leviosA"
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Yeah, I imagined.

P.S. This is a lengthy, perhaps boring, using too many unrelated images, irreverent, contrariwise, probably riddled with errors (according to Xpensive, of course, who is always wrong ;)), old school and "thread killer" of a post. So, please, mods, (and I'm not naming any names, turbof1) feel free to edit it or erase it, I won't lift a finger. As if I would anyway...
Ciro

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flynfrog
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Re: Why do go-karts still use carbureturs?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:
Now, if you go over 2000 HP, the learning curve in EFIs is horrible. No Top Fuel car uses an EFI, AFAIK.

Let's replace the carburetor with an EFI! What could go wrong?
https://sites.google.com/site/ciropabon ... harger.png
Ok I swore I was done posting on this site. But I have the once in a lifetime chance of calling out an error on a Ciro post.

That picture is of the clutch brain not the Fuel injection system.

Also

Image
$339

I still ride a carbed dirt bike but I have ridden the newer injected bikes and I have to say old carbies days are numbered. While a carb can make as much power as EFI the throttle response on EFI is much better at lower RPMs unless you are saying I don't know who to tune a carb in that case I call in to question the moral fortitude of you sister if you have one.