MotoGP 2015

[RZS10]

You are aware that they don't have mirrors...right?
The only way to know what's happening behind you is reading the pit boards whilst passing them doing 300km/h or turning around.
Pedrosa closed the gap within 2(?) laps, so he might have actually surprised Marquez - i do believe that he intended to take the win in the last two laps as he did in PI, knowing that P2 Lorenzo and P4 Rossi would suffice for Lorenzo, but once Pedrosa got into the mix ...

[Phil]

No I wasn't.

But to be fair; it doesn't change the argument much. I am just looking at a grab with 4 laps to go where a board is being put up for Marquez stating the gap to Pedrosa to be 1.3s. And no, Pedrosa didn't close the gap within 2 laps; he was constantly closing in from around lap 7 or so (looking at another board with 7 laps to go for Marquez telling him the gap to Pedrosa to be 2.3s). So between lap 7 and lap 4, that gap that came down by a second was communicated on the pit board to Marquez.

One way or the other, I'm assuming Marquez was fully aware what was happening behind him even without mirrors and without looking back. The pit board was unmistakable in what it was communicating; that the gap to Pedrosa was shrinking over the course of 3 laps, 3 laps in which he was right up Lorenzos rear and did not attempt any pass at all. And with 4 laps to go, he was as close as he was ever going to be at which he still had enough time to do *anything* until eventually Pedrosa caught up 2-3 laps later and he was forced on the defensive.

[Andres125sx]

As Angel Nieto always says in spanish tv, it´s a nosense showing to your rival what are your strong and weak points before necessary

Passing Lorenzo too early could mean he see some weak point to attack Marc again, while if you wait until last laps, he doesn´t have that chance. Especially when he´s fighting for the title, he´d never worry about fighting too hard, if posible he´ll pass, if not he´ll stay in P2.

Yamaha was too fast at the exit of the corners, if Lorenzo realice about this, he´d have passed Marquez again easily. I also think Marc was riding a lot closer to the limit than Jorge. Jorge was on rails, probably not assuming too many risks (he didn´t need it), while Marquez was on the limit from first lap to last. IMHO Lorenzo was much faster


But this is only my opinion, Marquez renouncing to a victory so his rival can win the race even when he does not need it seems more reasonable than Marquez having a strategy to win the race... oh wait...

[JimClarkFan]

As Angel Nieto always says in spanish tv, it´s a nosense showing to your rival what are your strong and weak points before necessary

Passing Lorenzo too early could mean he see some weak point to attack Marc again, while if you wait until last laps, he doesn´t have that chance. Especially when he´s fighting for the title, he´d never worry about fighting too hard, if posible he´ll pass, if not he´ll stay in P2.

Yamaha was too fast at the exit of the corners, if Lorenzo realice about this, he´d have passed Marquez again easily. I also think Marc was riding a lot closer to the limit than Jorge. Jorge was on rails, probably not assuming too many risks (he didn´t need it), while Marquez was on the limit from first lap to last. IMHO Lorenzo was much faster


But this is only my opinion, Marquez renouncing to a victory so his rival can win the race even when he does not need it seems more reasonable than Marquez having a strategy to win the race... oh wait...

Here is the trouble with what you are saying.

You said lorenzo was much faster than MM but I understand there was never more than 0.3 seconds between Jorge and Marc in the last half of the race, meaning they were at least equally as fast.

You also say that MM didn't want to pass Lorenzo until near the end, but why then didn't he do this to Rossi in Assen, Philip Island and Sepang? Did you see how far back MM lunged at Rossi in those races, this is a guy who can do things with a bike nobody else on the grid can. I was watching the race thinking he was going to throw one up the inside of Jorge several times at turn one, and then again at turn 6 (not sure exact turn) for perhaps 4-5 laps in a row. Never happened. And yet when Dani overtook him MM immediately found the grip to throw the bike up the inside of Dani.

It is obvious that MM raced Jorge differently in Valencia than Rossi in Sepang. So obvious I don't think it is even up for debate, I mean really?


What isn't obvious is why. My feeling in hindsight is that it could have been two reasons:
1- MM wanted to do wanted to make sure Rossi didn't win the title, note I don't think MM gives a dam about helping Lorenzo.
2- MM got told off after Sepang not to interfere with the championship and as a result MM was worried about trying to pass in case he knocked jorge off - MM has admitted to being very nervous in the Valencia race, perhaps for this reason.

I don't know what happened. Opinions are widely, and dare I say evenly split. The only person who knows for sure is MM, that is what most people can agree on.

The new season has already started, let's stop talking about this Rossi vs MM stuff
You can be sure that next season it will be all out war waged by Rossi on MM

[Andres125sx]

Here is the trouble with what you are saying.

You said lorenzo was much faster than MM but I understand there was never more than 0.3 seconds between Jorge and Marc in the last half of the race, meaning they were at least equally as fast.

I was talking more about potential pace if that makes sense. I think Marc was driving at 100% while Jorge was maybe at 95% for obvious reasons, Marc had nothing to lose while Jorge was fighting for the title and needed at least a 2nd position so assuming too many risks would have been absurd.

If Marc didn´t want to pass Lorenzo, then what´s the reason he closed the gap in final part of the race? He could have stayed around 1 second behind as he was mid race

You also say that MM didn't want to pass Lorenzo until near the end, but why then didn't he do this to Rossi in Assen, Philip Island and Sepang? Did you see how far back MM lunged at Rossi in those races, this is a guy who can do things with a bike nobody else on the grid can. I was watching the race thinking he was going to throw one up the inside of Jorge several times at turn one, and then again at turn 6 (not sure exact turn) for perhaps 4-5 laps in a row. Never happened. And yet when Dani overtook him MM immediately found the grip to throw the bike up the inside of Dani.

It is obvious that MM raced Jorge differently in Valencia than Rossi in Sepang. So obvious I don't think it is even up for debate, I mean really?

Obviously it is obvious

But there´s an important difference you didn´t take into account. Rossi was not the leader, so Marc had to pass asap to be able to fight for victory, while Jorge in Valencia was the leader so there was no difference between passing in last lap or with 10 laps to go.

But there´s another difference yet wich is what I´ve explained above. When rider in front of you is slower then you don´t need any strategy, pass him and move away, while when he´s equally fast or even faster (but he does not want to assume risks) you must consider the situation differently, for example waiting till last moment so he has as few oportunities to recover the position as possible

What isn't obvious is why. My feeling in hindsight is that it could have been two reasons:
1- MM wanted to do wanted to make sure Rossi didn't win the title, note I don't think MM gives a dam about helping Lorenzo.
2- MM got told off after Sepang not to interfere with the championship and as a result MM was worried about trying to pass in case he knocked jorge off - MM has admitted to being very nervous in the Valencia race, perhaps for this reason

IMO option 1 would be absurd, specially considering even with Jorge 2nd Rossi would have lost the title, so what´s the reason to renounce a victory? No sense I think

Option 2 is doable tough

[JimClarkFan]

Option 1 is not as absurd as you think, Rossi and Marquez fell out big time in Assen. MM felt that Rossi cost him the title this year because of Argentina, and that bitterness was compounded in Assen. That was the rumour around the paddock before Philip Island. Whether or not MM attempted to return the favour was not known.

For what it is worth, I don't think Rossi would have won the title anyway.

[bdr529]

Either you think Marques is an Ass or Rossi is the Ass, Marques was an agitator or Rossi was reckless.
No one knows what either of them were thinking during the last 3 races, We just know what the outcome was

So I think option 3 is the best one I've heard so far

The new season has already started, let's stop talking about this Rossi vs MM stuff

[J.A.W.]

It was quite clear to me that at Valencia - Lorenzo was 'in the groove' - from Q-to-chequered flag..
& he wasn't gonna let M-M slip by on the final lap - like at P.Is, either.. as the lap times confirm..

Michelin tyres for next season brings up a big variable..
I recall that Rossi made a big fuss about dumping Michelin for Bridgestone - when Moto GP wasn't such a spec series..

& rumours are about - that KC Stoner is gonna be back at Ducati - as a development/wild-card race rider..

[Andres125sx]

Option 1 is not as absurd as you think, Rossi and Marquez fell out big time in Assen. MM felt that Rossi cost him the title this year because of Argentina, and that bitterness was compounded in Assen. That was the rumour around the paddock before Philip Island. Whether or not MM attempted to return the favour was not known.

For what it is worth, I don't think Rossi would have won the title anyway.

Marquez felt that Rossi cost him the title this year? Do you have a source or just imagination?


Marquez recognized he crashed too much this season, so he can´t blame both Rossi and himsself

[JimClarkFan]

Marquez felt that Rossi cost him the title this year? Do you have a source or just imagination?


Marquez recognized he crashed too much this season, so he can´t blame both Rossi and himsself

Is there are reason you have an attitude - what is the purpose behind you saying imagination? Not needed.

''So Rossi faced a rival capable of beating him at his own game. He also faced a rival who he had spent the whole weekend goading, after his outburst in the press conference accusing Márquez of trying to help Lorenzo. It was not as if Márquez needed much encouragement: the clash at Argentina had not sat well with Márquez, but the incident at Assen had infuriated him. Márquez believed – utterly wrongly – that he should have been awarded the win at Assen, when he slammed into Rossi and forced the Italian into the gravel, unwittingly handing him victory. Those two incidents had bred resentment, and Rossi added another twist speaking to Italian media. Márquez' manager, Emilio Alzamora, had told him that Márquez believed that Rossi had knocked him out of the championship, because of the crash in Argentina and second place at Assen.''
https://motomatters.com/analysis/2015/1 ... who_h.html

And to back this up, commentators have said that repeatedly that all was not well behind the scenes between Rossi and MM since Assen. You probably watch a different fed from me, the BTSPORT crowd, and the MotoGP have both said that MM has resented Rossi for both of those incidents and felt is was a contributing factor to him being out of contention this championship.

[turbof1]

I've been pondering on the notion that a rider should try to avoid having an influence on someone else his championship (the so called unwritten rule). It's though to weight the pro's against the con's. However, something did tip in favour of one direction (not the group; those are awful!). Today I readed this:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/11/11/g ... azil-2008/

It speaks about Glock first being accused of letting Hamilton pass on purpose back in the last corner deciding championship year of 2008. Then when everything settled, Ferrari realized Glock couldn't help himself. But Ferrari were on their account counting on enough drivers to influence the 2008 championship in favour of Massa.

Subsequently, Lorenzo was counting on Pedrosa and Marquez to influence the championship in his favour. We also saw Rossi complaining that Marquez influenced the championship. I think this unwritten rule really stretches as far as how it benefits your own ambitions. I'd like to believe that the riders at some point convened and agreed and this norm, but when it's used and perhaps even abused to only favour one and completely ignored by the other as it does not benefit him, I see very little point in applying that in any case. It leads to more controversy.

I think Marquez would never gone out clean out of the last race. If he overtook Lorenzo and leave a chance for Pedrosa to do the same, or crashed Lorenzo off the track, we would have had a massive fall out that a rider not having anything to do anymore with the title, influences the championship. The atlernative he choose also caused a fall out. Whatever he did, he would always be screwed. Rossi made sure of this by throwing those comments into public. Whatever he did, it would have ended with either "Oh look, he's helping Lorenzo by staying behind him." or "He's violating the uncalled written rule by being selfish for going for his own chances and thereby ruining Lorenzo's championship". Glock was in a similar position, albeit reason eventually triumphed there and Ferrari did admit Glock couldn't do it differently to have helped Massa to the title.

In the end I feel Marquez tried atleast from his perspective to do the most reasonable thing: He eyed an overtake that would induce no risk for either him crashing Lorenzo or letting Pedrosa get by too. It would not have helped him to agressively try to overtake Lorenzo and putting him at risk given the potential fall out. I will state that keeping Rossi from the title will have played a part too in it, but rather that then falling for Rossi's psychological warfare, going too far to disprove it and crashing Lorenzo out of the game.

My idea on the unwritten rule: scrap it, forget it. Let the riders and drivers decide on their own what they want to do on the track. It will give them immunity from situations where they'll always create controversy despite their honest and most sinsere intentions.

[Phil]

I think my issue with the Valencia race is that within the last 2 laps; All 3 riders with the power to alter the championship came within a second of each other. By its own, Marquez overtaking Lorenzo wouldn't have changed a thing; but if Pedrosa (who had serious pace towards the end of the GP) would have also overtaken Lorenzo, it would have been Rossis championship.

Because Marquez didn't attempt a move, he also indirectly protected Lorenzo from any threat arising behind him.

Anyway, my only issue is; Marquez is (from what I read) an extraordinary talent and renown for his aggressive driving. That driving was only visible when Pedrosa caught up and made his move. At least 8 laps before that, he was as close as anyone could be to a driver in front and he did not attempt a single move to the point it was painfully obvious to the world to see what was happening and why it was happening. Pedrosa, although spanish too, was driving with a very different dedication that was very clearly visible when he caught up and attempted to pass Marquez.

Do I think Rossi deserved the title? Not at all - I'm saying this irrespective of Rossi. I would have merely liked to see a genuine and authentic race for the front positions, not a staged one - especially not if the drivers in question are not even from the same team where one could argue a matter of internal team "order" policy!

It's a pitty; it otherwise could have been one of the most epic ends to a season where the end result probably wouldn't have changed either way, without the controversy (centering around Marquez) it is now causing instead. I'd rather see racing and not politics.

[Andres125sx]

Is there are reason you have an attitude - what is the purpose behind you saying imagination? Not needed.

I must admit after reading so much BS lately about the incident, I was sceptical about your statement, so didn´t use best manners to ask about a source, sorry for that, and upvoted since you proved you point perfectly

[Andres125sx]

Subsequently, Lorenzo was counting on Pedrosa and Marquez to influence the championship in his favour. We also saw Rossi complaining that Marquez influenced the championship. I think this unwritten rule really stretches as far as how it benefits your own ambitions. I'd like to believe that the riders at some point convened and agreed and this norm, but when it's used and perhaps even abused to only favour one and completely ignored by the other as it does not benefit him, I see very little point in applying that in any case. It leads to more controversy.

Exactly. Riders must take care of their own interests and nothing else.

I think Marquez would never gone out clean out of the last race. If he overtook Lorenzo and leave a chance for Pedrosa to do the same, or crashed Lorenzo off the track, we would have had a massive fall out that a rider not having anything to do anymore with the title, influences the championship. The atlernative he choose also caused a fall out. Whatever he did, he would always be screwed. Rossi made sure of this by throwing those comments into public. Whatever he did, it would have ended with either "Oh look, he's helping Lorenzo by staying behind him." or "He's violating the uncalled written rule by being selfish for going for his own chances and thereby ruining Lorenzo's championship"

Agree 100%, that was exactly Rossi intention, mind games to influence Marc and get some benefit.

In my humble opinion, THAT is manipulating the championship, playing mind games with third riders trying to get some benefit

In the end I feel Marquez tried atleast from his perspective to do the most reasonable thing: He eyed an overtake that would induce no risk for either him crashing Lorenzo or letting Pedrosa get by too. It would not have helped him to agressively try to overtake Lorenzo and putting him at risk given the potential fall out. I will state that keeping Rossi from the title will have played a part too in it, but rather that then falling for Rossi's psychological warfare, going too far to disprove it and crashing Lorenzo out of the game.

And agree again. Marc did the best he could, trying to win without going crazy

People (yes Phil, this goes for you too ) is saying Marc didn´t try it despite he usually is very aggresive, but I´m not sure if they think aggressiveness means you can overtake anyone riding at any pace, even if he´s faster than you, and not only that but also stop him for recovering the position in next laps

Lorenzo was the fastest rider, he got the pole with almost half a second advantage over Marquez (0.488 seconds). That´s a lot of time in MotoGP. Marquez obviously knew this, so he played his cards, try it in final laps so Jorge will be thinking in the title and will probably let you win. But if he´d have passed with 8 laps to go, Jorge would have seen he was faster, and will for sure have found some point to overtake without assuming any risk

But then Pedrosa ruined Marc strategy. BTW, Marc agressiveness is well known, but as it is his mind and strategies, he´s not only a fast and agressive rider, but also a smart one who knows when strategy is needed. In MotoGP he didn´t need it past seasons because he simply was too fast for the rest, but in Moto2 he proved it several times.

My idea on the unwritten rule: scrap it, forget it. Let the riders and drivers decide on their own what they want to do on the track. It will give them immunity from situations where they'll always create controversy despite their honest and most sinsere intentions.

Or not so honest....

Any reason nobody is talking about italian riders letting Rossi pass? Petrucci move was embarrasing. But people only talk about Marquez (thanks to Rossi´s public coments), even when Marquez was the only reason Jorge didn´t depend on himself in Valencia

Yes, without the asthonising last lap Marquez did in PI passing Lorenzo, Rossi would have reached Valencia with only 2 points advantage instead of 7, so Lorenzo´s victory would have been enough no matter what´s Rossi´s final position. But since Marc passed Jorge in PI, in Valencia Jorge depended on Rossi´s final position to win the title.

So despite all the comments, in reality Marc improved Rossi´s chances for the title in last three races. Ironical that most people say exactly the contrary, but hey, Rossi is VERY good playing mind games

[JimClarkFan]

Is there are reason you have an attitude - what is the purpose behind you saying imagination? Not needed.

I must admit after reading so much BS lately about the incident, I was sceptical about your statement, so didn´t use best manners to ask about a source, sorry for that, and upvoted since you proved you point perfectly

Fair enough, tbh I'm fed up hearing about it too now