New Indycar for 2012

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cossie
cossie
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Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 17:32

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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doesn't matter how light they make the engine, Indycar has said the all engines will weigh the same, and will add ballast if they are under weight, so they get slapped on the hand for building a better mouse trap

bill shoe
bill shoe
151
Joined: 19 Nov 2008, 08:18
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ ... -on-ovals/

Another useful update on the 2012 Indycar.

Previous car had 55% rear weight on ovals. Drivers and engineers wanted slightly less rear bias, but that's all that could be done within previous minimum weight.

New 2012 car has 59% rear weight, too much. However, the car is slightly lighter than the previous car. I calculated that adding the weight difference in front ballast would bring the 2012 rear % down to the same 55% of the previous car. However, this would obviously make the new car as heavy as the old, and Indycar wants to say the new car is lighter (not sure why, weight seems like a means rather than an ends).

Therefore they are trying to split the difference wth partial ballast to reduce rear weight to around 57%. This improves handling but it's still not good.

The extreme rear weight bias requires mind-blowing levels of cross-weight. This results in the right front tire being punished. Right front seems unlikely to last a full stint at Indy due to the harsh surface texture there (via the infamous diamond grinding).

Indycar teams are taking deliveries of the new car this week (in theory). The article conspicuously does not mention if this is actually occuring.

cossie
cossie
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Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 17:32

Re: New Indycar for 2012

Post

it just goes from bad to worse, how and the hell to you blow of saftey recommendations from DR's Trammel and Olvey, this super crapwagon should just get cannned and start over, but the Moronic Committe wanted a Dallara plant in Indy {tax payer funded} rather than a functional car


Posted: Thursday December 8, 2011 1:18PM ; Updated: Friday December 9, 2011 5:46PM




Brant James>INSIDE RACING


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Is next-generation IndyCar race car safer than the previous one?



Izod IndyCar series will move to the new Dallara DW12 chassis next season

DW12 will be safer due to increased room and padding in the bottom of the car...

... but experts say IndyCar could have done more to make the chassis more safe


The Dallara DW12 bears the intitials of Dan Wheldon, the chassis' original tester, who was killed in the final race of the IndyCar season.

Jennifer Stewart-US PRESSWIRE

One week from today a gleaming present is scheduled to arrive in race shops around Indianapolis. It will be fawned over for a few moments and then prepared for a much-anticipated, much-needed on-track testing in January. The delivery of the Dallara DW12, the next-generation Izod IndyCar Series race car, to individual teams will mark the next phase in the implementation of a vehicle designed, according to the series, to be innovative, competitive and cost-effective.

It will be more stylish, more adaptable, more affordable and, in ways, safer. But it could have been a lot safer, said Dr. Terry Trammell, an orthopedic surgeon and pioneer in motor sports medicine and injury prevention. The series, he said, missed a rare clean-sheet opportunity to make the advancements he and others in the medical community advised. Whereas NASCAR constructed a sort of rolling armored personnel carrier with the debut of its new car in 2007, IndyCar's seven-member ICONIC committee, Trammell said, recommended a Dallara-designed chassis with improvements, but not sweeping advancements in driver safety.

"The car was not built [with] all the safety innovations that we'd hoped for," Trammell told SI.com at a global safety symposium at the annual Performance Racing Industry trade show. "The [medical] people working in this literally asked to be able to position the driver the way we wanted him, with the seat around him the way we wanted him and then hand them [IndyCar] that and say, 'Ok, build the car around it.'

"Didn't happen. They did what they could within the envelope they were working with. They tried to accommodate the needs that we had, but it's still not optimal for every size driver. If you're little, it's better. But there were a lot of tradeoffs in order to come up with a chassis that is similar to what we have in size and shape."

There is a poignancy in the alleged shortcoming, because the new car bears the initials of Dan Wheldon, its original test driver, who was killed in the final race of the IndyCar season, utilizing the old car at Las Vegas on Oct. 16.

Trammell said a narrow timetable for selecting and announcing a new car for 2012 also impacted safety implementations.

"The rapidity of getting it into production and out onto the track was also part of the rush," he said. "So we didn't have all the time we would have liked."

The formation of the ICONIC committee, which included series chairman Randy Bernard, then-president of competition Brian Barnhart and 2012 car project coordinator Tony Cotman, was announced in April of 2010. It recommended the Dallara "safety cell" from among a host of hopefuls. The pacing, Trammell said, felt brisk.

"I'll put it this way: Would you want me to be in a big hurry when I'm operating on you?," he posed. "That's kind of the analogy. I would have liked to have had more time and been able to do more crash research. We're doing things that we think are going to be effective, but we haven't tested it."

Bernard did not immediately respond to an interview request.

The advisory committee's name was an acronym formed from the words "Innovative, Competitive, Open-Wheel, New, Industry-Relevant, Cost-Effective." Note that "safer" was not among. Gil de Ferran, a two-time CART champion and former Indianapolis 500 winner elected to the committee by the series' owners, said he had not seen data from testing of the new car, but he was sure "it must be an improvement" safety-wise.

"The committee didn't design the car. What we came up with was, in the end, a concept that I still think can address and in a way has addressed some of the issues facing the series, including reducing costs and trying to increase the framework to bring in new manufacturers," de Ferran said. "That was really the role of the committee, to create a new technical framework whereby that was a possibility. I think the engineers that were in charge of designing the cars, I don't know if they have or they haven't consulted with the various safety experts around the globe including Mr. Trammell -- who is a beacon of light, in that sense -- but I am sure they must have to, to some extent."

Trammell deemed the DW12 "better," mainly because of increased room and standard padding in the bottom of the car that better positions and protects most drivers in their seats. Taller drivers such as Justin Wilson and Graham Rahal, Trammell said, will benefit from the improvement, but remain more vulnerable.

"For Justin it's still not enough and we've tried to monkey around to try and get more [protection] for him. You just can't make him fit. Rahal the same way," Trammell said. "It's better, but still not ideal. The rest of it is very, very similar to the old car. If you overlay a tracing of the old car with the new one, there's not a whole lot of difference in the top contour heights and so forth. There's more room in the bottom."

Trammell said the new car would have likely prevented the broken leg Mike Conway sustained in a crash in the 2010 Indianapolis 500 when his car flew bottom-first into the catch fence.

"He had the leg injury from a penetration of the bottom of the tub by a metal fixture and the impact that broke his back was probably from the pull from the bottom of the car with the padding and the structure," Trammell said. "He would have at least mitigated that impact to a lesser load. He was right at 70 Gs so that could have been no break. The side panels are part of the car, they're not added on, so that gives you a layer of structural integrity the old car didn't have."

The DW12, Trammell said, would not have saved Wheldon because he, unlike Conway in 2010, impacted the catch fence with the top of the car and the exposed cockpit.

"It wouldn't have made any difference at all," said Trammell, who is part of the IndyCar investigation into Wheldon's death. "His injuries were such that, with an open-cockpit car, it's going to be the same problem. There was no failure of the car that caused his injury as best we can say now."

It is unclear whether the DW12, which features bumper-style covers around the rear tires, would have prevented Wheldon from going airborne.

Closing the cockpits on IndyCars is not viewed as a palatable or effective solution by most.

"A canopy would be similar to what they did in off-shore power boat racing," said Dr. Steve Olvey, the CART medical director for 22 years and an associate professor in the department of neurological surgery at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine. Along with Trammel, he was also a founding fellow of the FIA Institute. "There were three power boat racers killed [four] weeks ago in Miami [due to] offshore racing. I don't think that [a canopy] is the answer. If a wheel and tire assembly goes up the front of the car and hits the canopy, it could easily launch into the crowd. If a car hits head on it, it may make it more likely to become airborne and all bets are off if that occurs.

"It's not the end-all answer. I think open-cockpit racing has been around for years and will continue to be. I don't think making them closed is much of an answer."

Finding a humane compromise for driver and spectator in catch fence design is a current priority within FIA, IndyCar and NASCAR, Olvey said. Dr. Dean Sicking, one of the innovators of the revolutionary Steel and Foam Energy Reduction (SAFER) barrier credited anecdotally with saving scores of driver lives and preventing even more injury, told SI.com this summer that pit wall and catch fences were the next main improvable areas of a racetrack.

"There has not been a tremendous amount of research in that area and there's been debate on what method would be best," Olvey said of catch fences. "And there's also question of whether there are newer materials that would serve the purpose of protecting both the participants as well as the spectators to the same level. You can't risk endangering the lives of the people that go to watch the race. The drivers know it's a risky business. Anytime you're racing wheel-to-wheel at 224 mph, there's a lot of risk involved, but it's been that way forever and it'll continue to be that way."

But there are answers to be had, de Ferran said.

"In general, my view on safety is quite simple," he said. "There are a lot of clever people out there. There's a lot of knowledge and a lot of research that has happened in the field of safety and continues to happen worldwide. Everyone that is involved in motor sports has almost a duty to continue to make the sport safer, to improve the cars, every time there is a technology that provides a breakthrough. That's a commitment.

"Racing is racing, so there is an element of risk there you will never be able to wipe completely clean. Never the less, it doesn't mean everyone who is involved, in every capacity, shouldn't have a very strong commitment to keep making it safer and safer."

Whether IndyCar went far enough with its next-generation race car remains to be seen.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... z1gGfS80Ip

cossie
cossie
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Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 17:32

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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what the old saying about putting lipstick on a pig, from ESPN asnd it's not good

you just canot make this --- up
INDIANAPOLIS -- What do you get when you design a race car by committee and build it to a price?

The Dallara DW12 Indy car, which has an alarming number of people involved in the Izod IndyCar Series only half-joking that Dallara is Italian for disaster.

The car is named after the late Dan Wheldon, who handled the initial shakedown tests of Italian race car manufacturer Dallara Automobili's first new Indy car design since 2003. But Wheldon was maybe too diplomatic, a PR-minded party-line kind of guy, so he never played up the car's shortcomings. There are many of those, a fact that became obvious when testing moved on to the engine manufacturer phase and the car scared the likes of Dario Franchitti and Tony Kanaan while resolutely refusing to top 216 mph at Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

Following another round of testing at Auto Club Speedway in Fontana, Calif., Scott Dixon gave the most honest assessment of the car to date, calling it "a bit of a pig" with an even more pronounced pendulum effect than the current Dallara IR03, which is already a tail-heavy car. The numbers don't lie; the DW12 has a weight distribution of 41 percent front, 59 percent rear, as compared to the IR03's 45/55

Changes are still ongoing with the new Dallara Indy car.

The car's handling got better during the most recent round of testing at Homestead-Miami Speedway, but the improvement came from an extreme measure: Placing 26 pounds of lead ballast in the nose of the car to balance out the weight distribution.
INDIANAPOLIS -- What do you get when you design a race car by committee and build it to a price?

The Dallara DW12 Indy car, which has an alarming number of people involved in the Izod IndyCar Series only half-joking that Dallara is Italian for disaster.

The car is named after the late Dan Wheldon, who handled the initial shakedown tests of Italian race car manufacturer Dallara Automobili's first new Indy car design since 2003. But Wheldon was maybe too diplomatic, a PR-minded party-line kind of guy, so he never played up the car's shortcomings. There are many of those, a fact that became obvious when testing moved on to the engine manufacturer phase and the car scared the likes of Dario Franchitti and Tony Kanaan while resolutely refusing to top 216 mph at Indianapolis Motor Speedway.
http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/story ... t-sort-out

cossie
cossie
-12
Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 17:32

Re: New Indycar for 2012

Post

bill shoe wrote:http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ ... -on-ovals/

Another useful update on the 2012 Indycar.

Previous car had 55% rear weight on ovals. Drivers and engineers wanted slightly less rear bias, but that's all that could be done within previous minimum weight.

New 2012 car has 59% rear weight, too much. However, the car is slightly lighter than the previous car. I calculated that adding the weight difference in front ballast would bring the 2012 rear % down to the same 55% of the previous car. However, this would obviously make the new car as heavy as the old, and Indycar wants to say the new car is lighter (not sure why, weight seems like a means rather than an ends).

Therefore they are trying to split the difference wth partial ballast to reduce rear weight to around 57%. This improves handling but it's still not good.

The extreme rear weight bias requires mind-blowing levels of cross-weight. This results in the right front tire being punished. Right front seems unlikely to last a full stint at Indy due to the harsh surface texture there (via the infamous diamond grinding).

Indycar teams are taking deliveries of the new car this week (in theory). The article conspicuously does not mention if this is actually occuring.
the team owners would be idiots to take delevery on this pig right now

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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To be fair to Dallara, sounds like the real issue is the minimum weight being too low. Rest of the car might be just fine. Sliding nose weight in or out of the setup via ballast isn't exactly rocket science.

That, or if it was known well in advance that this would be the static distribution, should have done new tires (perhaps BS/FS will cut new molds yet, but that's crappy for them to be stuck having to spend that much money on a simple problem).

Pushing for lighter cars sounds like it's along the same lines as pushing all this green / efficiency crap in racing - and I'll hold off from elaborating on that as I usually do.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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It indeed is, and I think with the the Indycar is doing it better than F1.

The plan was to make a car that is around 300 pounds or so lighter, this they could run smaller engines and keep the same level of speed.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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I see now that that was indeed the objective, several hundred pounds weight reduction. That's absolutely wild for cars that are already light. No wonder they can't set the static distribution up worth a damn!
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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They state that that is because the gearbox etc. are overweight and none of those are their fault.

Even if that is not directly their fault they have to take that into account, the first are always heavier. I think they definately should postpone the introduction by one year, then they can take any weight out and make the car behave like it should. The way it looks now it was great on paper, and for the eye too but for the drivers it will be a complte nightmare and the car seems to be barely what Dallara had in mind
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

cossie
cossie
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Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 17:32

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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1st on the weight and Dullara trying to blame vendors, the vendors were given max weight limits and i'm pretty damn sure they meet them, this is just one cluster flock of a car, adding 26 lbs. of lead weight in the nose and making it a a bunker buster, now what crash test would that pass. telling teams that take delievery that they are going to have to pay for the revison of the suspension geometry, just junk this mess, round up the old Lola's and have handa , cosworth put in the 2.65 turbos and race them for a year, and get Lola and swift on the phone and have them design a new car, after 12 years this is the best Dullara can come up with, total failure #-o #-o

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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What do you have against ballast adjustment in cars, cossie? This is standard practice in every racing series I am familiar with _ F1 recently excepting itself with a very narrow (is it fixed?) window on nose weight ratio. Lead certainly isn't uncommon.

You suggest having entirely new cars drafted up... the simple and easy, reasonable solution is to bump the minimum weight back up and ballast the cars appropriately.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

cossie
cossie
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Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 17:32

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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it's a half ass solution, and that much added weight in the nose affects the crash stucture and integrety, the car is a total fricking failure #-o, when Champcar had Panoz build the DP01 it did not have these problems and was fast out of the box,

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008, 17:55

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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I agree with Cossie. It is disappointing to see that Dallara can only come up with this after so many years of experience. With the balast in the nose the car will be less safe than the previous one as well as these wheel shields weighing way too much. I feel sorry for the teams who just have to take this. It isnt like they could go somewhere else since there isnt any other road.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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cossie wrote:it's a half ass solution, and that much added weight in the nose affects the crash stucture and integrety, the car is a total fricking failure #-o, when Champcar had Panoz build the DP01 it did not have these problems and was fast out of the box,
You realize that the Panoz, old Lolas and Swifts or whatever were likely ALL ballasted to.get the nose weight to whatever they wanted. Thete's ballast on any and all racecars that are below minimum weight, and you need enough margin to be able to set the car up properly.

Now bear in mind, I really don't care one way or the other about Dallara. I had friends at Swift and would have loved to see them get the contract. But let's be real here, this is probably as much on the governing body than anything. Worried about mass.being that far worward? Use 50 lb instead of 25 and it can be further rearward.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

cossie
cossie
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Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 17:32

Re: New Indycar for 2012

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come on you have to admit that his car is pig, that should just be dropped, and your friend at Swift would tell you that they had a hell of a better design, and i really doubt that Panoz, swift,Lola put 26lb.s of ballest in thier noses, there is no excuse for this mess