Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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I learned that it was actually a "running laboratory" for F1 and Mercedes return to F1. Hence also why it ran the turbo C11 alongside it in case(inevitably early on in the season)the cars didnt make the finish line.

What intrigues me is the route Mercedes took with this. a Flat 12? Very flamboyant decision......
More could have been done.
David Purley

marcush.
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:I learned that it was actually a "running laboratory" for F1 and Mercedes return to F1. Hence also why it ran the turbo C11 alongside it in case(inevitably early on in the season)the cars didnt make the finish line.

What intrigues me is the route Mercedes took with this. a Flat 12? Very flamboyant decision......
indeed the daimler guys were more than miffed when they found out Ilmor was going to do the engines for the F1 car and their big fat baby was to be put to rest...
the turbo was kept in service for LeMans obviously and when it became clear that reliabilty of the engine was not there for the whole season.

JohnsonEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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I think a poignant question has to be wether Mercedes engineers themselves could have done better than Ilmor in F1. Personally I have no doubt of that but it would always boil down to cost. Somthing Mercedes engineers are not is CHEAP!

It has come Full circle now and Mercedes are indeed Mercedes in F1, and not rebadged Ilmor.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move." Adams

twoshots
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Not quite, Mercedes engines are still the old Ilmor, although Daimler have invested a lot of money into the facilities and been in charge long enough you might call them Mercedes-Benz engines. Mercedes GP, however, are probably still best thought of as rebadged Honda.

twoshots
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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JohnsonEvilTwin wrote:I think a poignant question has to be wether Mercedes engineers themselves could have done better than Ilmor in F1. Personally I have no doubt of that but it would always boil down to cost. Somthing Mercedes engineers are not is CHEAP!
I think Ilmor have done an extremely good job. Probably better than Daimler would have done, although that is idle speculation. They argueably have produced the best overall engine in terms of power, efficiency, packaging and reliability in the sport.

JohnsonEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Which engine specifically?
I dont deny they did a great job but since the Berylium engine was banned in 2001(Ferrari veto in action) Ilmor went backwards until 2005 when Mercedes purchased them outright and renamed it Mercedes High Performance Engines.


The MP4/13 engine im guessing.... :D
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JohnsonEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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My line of thinking is that he who owns it has the right to be named after it.

Mercedes GP is very much a Mercedes, and their V8s are very much their own too.
Mercedes HPE is their division and has been for the last 5 years.
Ilmor and Mario Ilien no longer have any affinity to Mercedes-Benz.
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manchild
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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JohnsonEvilTwin wrote:I think a poignant question has to be wether Mercedes engineers themselves could have done better than Ilmor in F1. Personally I have no doubt of that but it would always boil down to cost. Somthing Mercedes engineers are not is CHEAP!
Mercedes wasn't capable of making their own engines, because they've dumped racing after tragedy in Le Mans. That is why Ilmor was hired. They simply lacked experience lost from mid 50s to mid 80s. AMG was private tuning company they bought for same reason. Identical thing happened with Ilmor.

Regarding expensiveness of Mercedes engineers, by any standard Swiss engineers are more expensive and more famous in any area of engineering.
JohnsonEvilTwin wrote:It has come Full circle now and Mercedes are indeed Mercedes in F1, and not rebadged Ilmor.
Well, that's just wishful thinking. Current Mercedes engines main parts (from cyl. heads below) are still made in ex Ilmor now officially Mercedes factory in Switzerland by Swiss engineers.

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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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twoshots wrote:
JohnsonEvilTwin wrote:I think a poignant question has to be wether Mercedes engineers themselves could have done better than Ilmor in F1. Personally I have no doubt of that but it would always boil down to cost. Somthing Mercedes engineers are not is CHEAP!
I think Ilmor have done an extremely good job. Probably better than Daimler would have done, although that is idle speculation. They argueably have produced the best overall engine in terms of power, efficiency, packaging and reliability in the sport.
back then in Group c days ,the Jag was running a Ford HB engine and the daimler unit was no match for it.end of story.To low on power to fat .At around the same time aother german car maker attempted to do f1 with a 12bore 3.5l engine with the same drawbacks -and middle power take off - and failed.
Daimler board did the reasonable and bought into Ilmor to do F1 (wasn´t this engine originally a concept for Leyton House?)the stuttgart facilities were used for basic research and testing and this was surely the best solution back then.

JohnsonEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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But the Mercedes V8 Turbo was a match for the ford HB no?

Or did the HB only compete in 91?
There are many stories of the 1990 Sauber Mercedes reaching speeds of 400kmh on the Mulsanne straight at Le mans, I cannot verify it but it does make for pretty impressive numbers.

And TWR Jag Ford HB was a bit of a mongrel, but a bloody fast one at that!
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JohnsonEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Manchild

I was refering to their F1 engine base in Brixworth. It is no longer Ilmor, and should be rightfully referred to as Mercedes-Benz.

In the modern day and age nothing is totally sourced inhouse. I mean Ferrari outsource alot of work to other companies including magnetti marelli et al, Also we should not forget the FIAT parentage which has its righful place on the cars too.

My understanding is that Mercedes could have created their own F1 engine division, but the cost of doing so was extortionate with no guarantees. So they actually opted for the cheapest option in Ilmor.
And regardless of which country has the best engineers, I dont think Mercedes lost the expertise to make a car go fast! Look at their DTM programme in the 80s?
190E evo anyone? :lol:
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Morteza
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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A high resolution image of C291 engine:

Image
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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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Thank you for that Morteza.

This engine looks totally alien from the norm. Is it true they had to remove it to change spark plugs? :lol:
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Pandamasque
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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JohnsonEvilTwin wrote:I dont think Mercedes lost the expertise to make a car go fast! Look at their DTM programme in the 80s?
190E evo anyone? :lol:
Cosworth? :)

marcush.
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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DTM was always AMG ,now HWR territory ...no real input from Stuttgart.

The M291 engine really was developped in Daimler R&D as was the turbo charged V8 (which was a private project of sauber!)
so Daimler actually had started to develop race engines for some time when they decided to go with Morgan and Illien....