Are big front wheels the real problem?

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smellybeard
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by smellybeard » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:46 pm

DiogoBrand wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:51 pm
Smaller sidewalls just for the sake of it?
No. You've completely misinterpreted what I've written.
Nothing, just for the sake of it. Features "just for the sake of it" belong in comic books and fashion magazines.
The features of FIA Formula racing cars should evolve to serve an competitive, safety, engineering or cost need.

smellybeard
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by smellybeard » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:07 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:55 pm
I have to say I disagree on your techical points. AFAIK, the *only* reason the teams use 13" wheels is because that is the maximum size by rule.
The current tires evolved under the control of the tire manufacturers. The rules are essentially written around the commercial tender and the design around the common practice at the time the contract was awarded. It is an overall design package that was well enough understood at the time to be continued. The large front tire concept arose when Michelin attempted to maximise the overall rubber available. Aero and weight distribution evolved evolved to best use this new distribution of contact area.

My proposition is that mandating smaller overall front wheels will limit braking performance and lessen the wake issues of the front wheels on the rest of the car. It could also have indirect implications for the front wing and wheelbase. The front wheels are at the front of the car and their knock on effects are felt throughout the car.

There could also be safety benefits to smaller front wheels. They'd have a smaller overall mass and be easier to see over.

DiogoBrand
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by DiogoBrand » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:18 pm

smellybeard wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:46 pm
DiogoBrand wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:51 pm
Smaller sidewalls just for the sake of it?
No. You've completely misinterpreted what I've written.
Nothing, just for the sake of it. Features "just for the sake of it" belong in comic books and fashion magazines.
The features of FIA Formula racing cars should evolve to serve an competitive, safety, engineering or cost need.
And what I've said is that big wheels won't be implemented just for the sake of it, it will be done to update Formula One wheels to the 21st century.

smellybeard
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by smellybeard » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:35 pm

DiogoBrand wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:18 pm
And what I've said is that big wheels won't be implemented just for the sake of it, it will be done to update Formula One wheels to the 21st century.
No, I haven't said that either.

DiogoBrand
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by DiogoBrand » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:42 pm

smellybeard wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:35 pm
DiogoBrand wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:18 pm
And what I've said is that big wheels won't be implemented just for the sake of it, it will be done to update Formula One wheels to the 21st century.
No, I haven't said that either.
Okay, so before you spend the rest of the week specifying what you didn't say, I'll sum it up:
You said that implementing big rims just for the sake of it would go against the spirit of Formula One. I agree with that, but then I said that the big wheels won't be implemented just for the sake of it, they will be implemented for technical reasons like suspension development, perhaps also for Pirelli to be able to advertise their brand on tyres that actually look like the ones they sell to everyone on the shops, and because 13 inch wheels are one of the most outdated aspects of Formula One.

I hope now we're on the same page.

smellybeard
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by smellybeard » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:49 pm

DiogoBrand wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:42 pm
I hope now we're on the same page.
No, we're not on the same page.

You're summing up what you want to think and it bears little relationship to what I'm saying - quite clearly. About the only point you make that makes any sense is the notion of Pirelli wanting bigger rims but that's because Pirelli fanboys want bigger rims like on their tin-box turbo skates - which is as close to "for the sake of it" as I can imagine.

What fanboys want and what magic marker artists want rarely has any logic to it. My favourite affectation of that brigade is the german style number plates - in a font that was designed for better machine-reading and speed camera performance.

hollus
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by hollus » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:47 am

smellybeard wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:46 pm
...The features of FIA Formula racing cars should evolve to serve an competitive, safety, engineering or cost need.
The underlining is mine.
I am afraid that FIA might take the point of view that visually more attractive cars (to a majority) mean more eyeballs which means more sponsors and bigger TV deals which means more money.
In an ideal world, what you said might hold true, but in this world, more money in trumps less cost out almost every time.
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.

DiogoBrand
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by DiogoBrand » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:02 am

smellybeard wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:49 pm
DiogoBrand wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:42 pm
I hope now we're on the same page.
No, we're not on the same page.

You're summing up what you want to think and it bears little relationship to what I'm saying - quite clearly. About the only point you make that makes any sense is the notion of Pirelli wanting bigger rims but that's because Pirelli fanboys want bigger rims like on their tin-box turbo skates - which is as close to "for the sake of it" as I can imagine.

What fanboys want and what magic marker artists want rarely has any logic to it. My favourite affectation of that brigade is the german style number plates - in a font that was designed for better machine-reading and speed camera performance.
I honestly don't care about this discussion anymore.

henry
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by henry » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:49 pm

It’s taken a long while, and some unnecessary squabbling, to get to the realisation that they might change the wheel size for non-engineering reasons. If we list the pros and cons so far.

Pros
The tyre contact patch is less variable - easier to manage the suspension
The tyre sidewall is less variable in shape - making aero more predictable
There is more space for the brakes (although using this might add to the cons of more weight and higher inertial
There is more space for the hubs and suspension components.
They are “modern”
They might help marketing

Cons
They’re heavier - less acceleration both linearly and laterally (slower round corners)
- more unstrung mass
They have higher rotational inertia - less linear acceleration and higher precession forces
The contact patch is less compliant reducing the ability to deal with distortions in the road surface
They are potentially taller and so making visibility worse
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

JordanMugen
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by JordanMugen » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:08 pm

henry wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:49 pm
They are potentially taller and so making visibility worse
Not necessary, it's just a choice. 18" racing wheels with 640mm, 650mm and 680mm diameter exist... the current 670mm diameter could be easily matched. 710mm diameter is just a choice to align with LMP1.

If the teams had free choice, it is only logical the wheel size would increased from the 15" of the 1960's, up to larger sizes...

Please check carefully the low profile tyres (only 590mm diameter with 104.5 mm sidewall) of Jackie Stewart's 15" front tyres!! :wink: That sidewall is actually LESS than the 131mm sidewall of a 710mm tyre on a 18" wheel. That's right, the 1970's F1 car had even LOWER profile than what is planned for 2021!!

Image
smellybeard wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:49 pm
Pirelli fanboys want bigger rims like on their tin-box turbo skates - which is as close to "for the sake of it" as I can imagine.
Surely Tyrell and Mr. Stewart didn't used low-profile front tyres just for the sake of it (or to somehow match low-profile road cars tyres that weren't even available in the 1970s)? :wink:

Rather, it would seem there are benefits in front-end steering and handing precision from the lower-profile...

Mattchu
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by Mattchu » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:44 pm

henry wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:49 pm
It’s taken a long while, and some unnecessary squabbling, to get to the realisation that they might change the wheel size for non-engineering reasons. If we list the pros and cons so far.

Pros
The tyre contact patch is less variable - easier to manage the suspension
The tyre sidewall is less variable in shape - making aero more predictable
There is more space for the brakes (although using this might add to the cons of more weight and higher inertial
There is more space for the hubs and suspension components.
They are “modern”
They might help marketing

Cons
They’re heavier - less acceleration both linearly and laterally (slower round corners)
- more unstrung mass
They have higher rotational inertia - less linear acceleration and higher precession forces
The contact patch is less compliant reducing the ability to deal with distortions in the road surface
They are potentially taller and so making visibility worse
Good post henry, with regards to the potential cons, isn`t this what we want in Formula 1, some of the best engineers in the world having "problems" put infront of them that they have to work round/find the best solution for.

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Blaze1
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by Blaze1 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:43 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:20 pm
Blaze1 wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:45 pm
I agree with your favouritism JM, however I'd just like to mention that I'm not sure about the precise timeframes, however pre and post 1993 the tyre diameters were 25 inches (635 mm) for the fronts and 26 inches (660 mm) for the rears, then at some point the fronts were increased to 660mm.
The only rulebooks I have from the 90's are 1994 and 1997. Both regulations specify a maximum wheel/tyre diameter of 26" and a maximum wheel width of 15". That doesn't mean the fronts weren't smaller though. I think the front and rear diameters became matched in '98 when the narrower, grooved tyres came in.
Thanks jjn9128.

I've tried to find official tyre dimensions from that era but can't unfortunately and have had to rely on clear, undistorted profile shots of the cars to determine tyre diameters.

smellybeard
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by smellybeard » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:51 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:08 pm
henry wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:49 pm
They are potentially taller and so making visibility worse
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... r_1973.jpg
smellybeard wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:49 pm
Pirelli fanboys want bigger rims like on their tin-box turbo skates - which is as close to "for the sake of it" as I can imagine.
Surely Tyrell and Mr. Stewart didn't used low-profile front tyres just for the sake of it (or to somehow match low-profile road cars tyres that weren't even available in the 1970s)? :wink:

Rather, it would seem there are benefits in front-end steering and handing precision from the lower-profile...
Tyrrell used low profile tires for a couple of reasons. One, that's what was available and commonly used and therefore had a lot of support from the manufacturers of the day - I think there were three different ones that year. Two: the bodywork regulations of the day permitted the bluff nosecones that Tyrrell pioneered to rise to the height of the top of the wheel-rim. When the six-wheeler appeared, special one inch high tires were made to get the best out of these rules.

I know these cars well and have spannered on F1 and F2 cars of the era and have a couple of atlantics of my own.

smellybeard
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by smellybeard » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:53 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:08 pm
Rather, it would seem there are benefits in front-end steering and handing precision from the lower-profile...
Go back to my first post; this is not actually about "low profile tires" - it's about smaller overall size of the entire wheel and tire.

smellybeard
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Re: Are big front wheels the real problem?

Post by smellybeard » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:46 pm

henry wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:49 pm
It’s taken a long while, and some unnecessary squabbling, to get to the realisation that they might change the wheel size for non-engineering reasons. If we list the pros and cons so far....
Most of the pros and cons you mention are engineering reasons.