18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:16 pm
Not the low profile, "painted on", look that some were hoping for. Just looks like a standard road car tyre really. Meh.
What were you expecting?

They were announced to be approximately LMP size tyres:
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And not Super Touring type tyres: :D
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The Super Touring tyres were probably more conspicuous back in the 90's, back when almost no road cars came with such low profile tyres! :shock: :o

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The Super Tourers ran 19" wheels with 650mm diameter tyres, so obviously had much more of a "painted on" look than F1 cars with 18" wheels with 725mm diameter tyres.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:30 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:16 pm
Not the low profile, "painted on", look that some were hoping for. Just looks like a standard road car tyre really. Meh.
What were you expecting?
The way some people were commenting about the proposal, we were getting low profile tyres. We're not, we're getting family car tyres. :lol:

Me? I think the whole thing is pointless and that we should stay with 13s. But apparently "change is needed to attract fans" or some such tripe.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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JordanMugen
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:24 pm
Me? I think the whole thing is pointless and that we should stay with 13s. But apparently "change is needed to attract fans" or some such tripe.
Surely change is needed because Formula One is the only racing series that uses 13" tyres? :)

It would be logical to use 18" tyres like those used in most other racing series, such that there is more well-controlled suspension kinematics with precisely defined spring and damping rates, and less undamped tyre wobble?

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Holm86
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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The wheel fairings they have to put on the rims in 22 are they a spec design? Or does the wheel manufacturers design them, or even the teams themselves???

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:02 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:24 pm
Me? I think the whole thing is pointless and that we should stay with 13s. But apparently "change is needed to attract fans" or some such tripe.
Surely change is needed because Formula One is the only racing series that uses 13" tyres? :)

It would be logical to use 18" tyres like those used in most other racing series, such that there is more well-controlled suspension kinematics with precisely defined spring and damping rates, and less undamped tyre wobble?
So what? One might just as well argue that everyone else should run 13 inch rims because F1 does and it's the fastest series in the world.

Both arguments are silly, of course, and the change is being done solely for aesthetic/marketing reasons. Tyre companies want 18 inch tyres because that's what road cars run and thus it's easier to use racing to market road tyres. F1 engineers, on the other hand, are quite happy and capable of using high aspect ratio tyres to make the fastest circuit racing cars in history.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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JordanMugen
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:35 am
Both arguments are silly, of course, and the change is being done solely for aesthetic/marketing reasons. Tyre companies want 18 inch tyres because that's what road cars run and thus it's easier to use racing to market road tyres. F1 engineers, on the other hand, are quite happy and capable of using high aspect ratio tyres to make the fastest circuit racing cars in history.
Formula One cars have unusually small brakes. When a Peugeot 308 GTi has 15" brakes and a Toyota TS050 Hybrid has 15" brakes as well, why should a Formula One car have 13" wheels? :shock:

Is it not illogical for Formula One cars to use 4" smaller brakes than LMP1? After all, the only reason for this are the regulations mandating 11" brakes and 13" wheels respectively.

It seems entirely illogical that engineers would not prefer to use larger brakes with greater thermal capacity.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:35 am
...the change is being done solely for aesthetic/marketing reasons.
This implies BTCC engineers were incompetent and fitted 19" wheels to their saloons for "aesthetic/marketing reasons" instead of for the purpose of fitting these lovely enormous brakes. :D =D>

Image

The only reason F1 teams would be opposed to low-profile 670mm diameter tyres on some nice 19" wheels with nice 17" brakes is because they have spent far too much money on suspensions optimised for high-profile tyres. Selfish chappies indeed! :roll:

As you suggest, it has been a failure to opt for bulky 18" tyres that allowed existing systems to be retained, instead of very low-profile 19" or 20" wheels with 18" brakes that would have required a complete suspension redesign and better acted to shake up the competitive order.

Image

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:45 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:35 am
Both arguments are silly, of course, and the change is being done solely for aesthetic/marketing reasons. Tyre companies want 18 inch tyres because that's what road cars run and thus it's easier to use racing to market road tyres. F1 engineers, on the other hand, are quite happy and capable of using high aspect ratio tyres to make the fastest circuit racing cars in history.
Formula One cars have unusually small brakes. When a Peugeot 308 GTi has 15" brakes and a Toyota TS050 Hybrid has 15" brakes as well, why should a Formula One car have 13" wheels? :shock:

Is it not illogical for Formula One cars to use 4" smaller brakes than LMP1? After all, the only reason for this are the regulations mandating 11" brakes and 13" wheels respectively.

It seems entirely illogical that engineers would not prefer to use larger brakes with greater thermal capacity.
The Peugeot 308GTi etc., have a full set of stability, traction and ABS systems. If road cars have it, it's illogical for the fastest racing cars in the world not to have it. After all, the only reason they don't have these things is because the regulations mandate that they don't.

Thus the argument can be easily made. :wink:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:16 pm
Not the low profile, "painted on", look that some were hoping for. Just looks like a standard road car tyre really. Meh.
Did the tire profile even decrease at all?

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:00 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:35 am
...the change is being done solely for aesthetic/marketing reasons.
This implies BTCC engineers were incompetent and fitted 19" wheels to their saloons for "aesthetic/marketing reasons" instead of for the purpose of fitting these lovely enormous brakes. :D =D>

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/prod ... brakes.jpg

The only reason F1 teams would be opposed to low-profile 670mm diameter tyres on some nice 19" wheels with nice 17" brakes is because they have spent far too much money on suspensions optimised for high-profile tyres. Selfish chappies indeed! :roll:

As you suggest, it has been a failure to opt for bulky 18" tyres that allowed existing systems to be retained, instead of very low-profile 19" or 20" wheels with 18" brakes that would have required a complete suspension redesign and better acted to shake up the competitive order.

http://www.blogcdn.com/slideshows/image ... bble-1.jpg
BTCC is a series that specifies the wheel and brake package that the competitors must use. They have to run the AP Racing brake package. That's a marketing decision.

Forcing F1 teams to entirely change their suspension and aero designs just in order to fit trendy looking tyres does rather go against the cost saving ethos that so many want F1 to follow. It won't really shake anything up because the big teams will do it better than the little teams because they have the resources to that the little teams just don't have.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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henry
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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I think the reason the F1 community likes high profile tyres is the compliance of the tyre on rough surfaces, particularly kerbs. By riding kerbs in the way they do they reduce the curvature of tracks which makes cars quicker. Lower profile tyres do not conform to the kerb surface as well and so traction is reduced.

The downside of high profile tyres is the lack of damping. The F1 engineers have developed suspension capabilities to handle this, inerters and acceleration sensitive valving amongst others. These latter are banned when the 18” wheels are introduced.

The new tyres are a compromise with higher profile than originally wanted by the rule makers but with enough compliance to help the engineers ride the kerbs. They won’t be as fast as the 13” tyres with the suspension techniques that evolved to take advantage of them. Drivers, and engineers, will need to relearn lines to accommodate reduced performance over kerbs.

But they’ll look nice.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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henry wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:03 am


But they’ll look nice.
To some eyes. :lol:

The things is, if F1 needs to move to these wheels/tyres for marketing purposes and to try to get fans to watch races, there is a fundamental problem with F1 which these changes won't help.

Would anyone care about the "old fashioned tyres" if the cars were climbing all over each other lap after lap and the racing was edge of the seat stuff from lights to flag? No. No they wouldn't.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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jjn9128
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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I'd have split the difference, 15/16" wheel with smaller diameter tyre. The cover can then have an 18" wheel painted on for the Pirelli marketing :lol: :lol:
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RedNEO
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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djos
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Re: 18-inch wheels to be introduced in 2021.

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I like the new wheel and tire combo, I think they struck a good balance. I think super low-profile would have looked stupid on F1 cars.

V8 SuperCars have also avoided going the painted-on route and as a result, their cars can ride bumps and curbs without destroying the wheels despite weighing 1,395 kilos.

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