Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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jdickerson
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Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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Red Bull ride height and flexi-wing solved?
Reading post on this forum and others, there seems to be a general consensus that both these things are happening, but how they have achieved it has yet to be convincingly and thoroughly explained. Why can't we see anything conclusive on television? I believe it’s because of the clever way they are hiding it. They are using an asymmetrical fractal geometry tuned mass damper. Specifically, one tuned to the frequency of the formula 1 television feed of 25 frames per second. The shape of each damper is such that it will spin at a constant frequency regardless of the forces applied once a minimum amount of energy applied. One damper is located at the hub of each wheel. Because it’s always at the same place when each frame is taken, the asymmetry is unnoticeable. In this video clip of early testing it clearly shows the device at work and not in tune with the video feed. I suspect they hadn't perfected the shape yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xx04Wp0hy_Q

I also believe this is why Mclaren was using the strange front wing testing device preseason. It allowed them to tune their front wing without showing the strange oscillations that would be visible if it were slightly out of tune with the television feed. How then do they use this to adjust the ride height and front wing while maintaining a rigid chassis?
The effect of the asymmetrical masses spinning cause the car to pulse up and down. I'm sure red bull have a system similar to Mercedes as described here on scarbsf1 that instead allows the car to ratchet down with each cycle, but limit the amount it can go back up by using a very slow bleed valve.
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/10/1 ... uspension/
As the RB7 (and RB6 as it used the same system) reaches minimum ride height, the rigidity of the chassis is achieved in the same way one's elbow locks out if one extends their arm. Because this system of lowering the car relies on these tuned dampers spinning freely in the wheel hub, they would lose effectiveness as soon as the brakes are depressed. Ferrari uses a similar system, and this would explain why his wing instantly stopped vibrating as soon as he hit the brakes. Also, he had a tire that had a slow puncture and I think this caused the excessive vibration in the first place as the mass dampers went out of phase and sufficiently damaged his suspension causing the failure later. Vettel and Webber drive suspiciously slow back to pit after each session, to allow the car to return to the original ride height so no stationary pictures of the car are taken showing a different rake angle. The drivers probably tail brake all the way back to the pits to insure full ride height is achieved.
The pivot point of the chassis is probably right in the center of the car allowing the legality plank to flex as a "see saw splitter" as explained by, u guessed it ScarbsF1 right here.
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/10/1 ... -solution/
The flexible front wing is achieved by tensioning the controversial wires seen hanging from Red Bulls front wings several times. When Massa's wing shattered in India and the end plate went flying, I’m quite sure one can see the wires there, too, as it also uses this same system. When ride height is at its maximum, these wires support the front wing and allow it pass the legality test. When the ride height is reduced while the car is moving, this releases the tension on the wires and allows the wing to flex down as observed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GboweGhYixc
The genius of this system is that they can use it in plain view of all the cameras and it can't be seen because it is in sync. I think this is why the other teams have taken so long to figure out what is going on. I suspect that many of the key features on current f1 car designs will be reinterpreted if I am correct, specifically the high nose cone, angle of rake, shape of the nose cone including reinforcing bulges running along the edge, pull rod suspension, and front wing aerodynamics. The efficiency of the diffuser must be increased significantly by changing the shape of the floor. I have much more to say on this subject, but I wanted to get this out there to make sure it will stand up to criticism and I can't wait to see the reaction if this does indeed prove to be true. Thanks in advances for your time.

Joel Dickerson
(First online post, go easy)

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Pierce89
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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I don't really know what to say other than tuning to the TV frame rate by a mass damper of any sort would be dubious at best. First of all, tuned mass dampers were outlawed in F1 in 2006. Secondly a tuned mass damper needs to work with the natural chassis and tire frequencies otherwise it could hurt tire grip. I doubt the TV and chassis/tires would require the same frequencies. But, I'll be the first to admit I DO NOT COME CLOSE to fully understanding all the intricacies of F1.
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jdickerson
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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I'm sure I was wrong now. If you look closely at the red bull front wing in the first link, they are wing warping it like the wright brothers did on the first fight. The weight on the hub is falling as the wing is in position to produce the most downforce on that side. Back and forth. Stressing one tire while giving the other one just a instant to recover. kind of like the engine setting in moto gp dubbed "big bang."

jdickerson
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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Its controlled by 4 wires connected to each corner of the wing and to each corner of the car. When massa's wing broke, he had a slow right rear puncture. As that corner of the car sagged under acceleration it lifted the opposite corner of his wing too far, breaking it. When he hit the brakes, the weight of the car transferred forward relieving tension on the wire and reducing the fluttering, but by then the wing shattered. His front suspension on right side later broke, i'm guessing because it was also attached to the side of the wing as the rear tire. The stress of the fluttering weakened the carbon fiber by pulling on the wire too hard. The corners of the front wing are weight to match the weights on the center hubs to act as a dual mass damper system to increase the effectiveness of the system and to cancel out each others vibration. That's what's really going on. At least i think that right now.

Joel
Last edited by jdickerson on Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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flynfrog
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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How do you explain the high speed camera shots then they would surly show the wing moving.

jdickerson
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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I was wrong about that.

munudeges
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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jdickerson wrote:Its controlled by 4 wires connected to each corner of the wing and to each corner of the car.
Right. :roll:

wesley123
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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seems quite logical to me munudeges :mrgreen:
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strad
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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Specifically, one tuned to the frequency of the formula 1 television feed of 25 frames per second
Well than it wouldn't ber in sync for American TV which operates at 29.97 frames per second. :roll:
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bill shoe
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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The F1 feed is ~25 frames/sec and the U.S. broadcast uses ~30 frames/sec. Therefore the logical assumption is that the Red Bull uses the tuned-mass dampers with a frequency equal to the lowest common multiple of the two frame rates. This works out to, what, 150 hz?

Alternatively, the TMD's in the wheels shake at 25 hz as mentioned at the beginning of this thread, and the nose of the car yaws (see the "Red Bull floor" thread) at 30 hz, so the combined motion creates the necessary frequencies to fool both TV feed rates.

Newey is a genius.

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ringo
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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Interesting.

Is the wire connected to the bell cranks? or the wheel hubs.

Technically the wire would be a connection to the ground, and not the sprung part of the car, which is in breach.

It is connected to the non sprung part of the car if it is to have relative motion between itself and the sprung part.

They may be doing this, but it will need a very intricate connection through the interface between removable nose and tub.


I generally believe the wing is anisotropic. It's a machine within itself. It may not need the strings to work.
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The FOZ
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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jdickerson wrote:Its controlled by 4 wires connected to each corner of the wing and to each corner of the car...As that corner of the car sagged under acceleration it lifted the opposite corner of his wing too far, breaking it.
Check out Boeing's 787 Wing 150% load test. http://youtu.be/sA9Kato1CxA

To actually damage the laminate by pulling up on the wing ends would require a significant force - far more than I'd expect a flat tire to account for using the proposed cable system. I've seen the size of the cables you're referring to, I sincerely doubt those cables would be capable of transmitting that much force. IF they could, what kind of housings would they need? Finally, how could this system work with quick change noses? Seems unlikely.

What we're seeing with Ferrari's wobbly wing is vibration effect - maybe it's completely accidental, or maybe it's Ferrari not getting a more complex damping system quiiite right, and they're playing dumb to make it seem entirely innocent.

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strad
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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WHAT??? We are back to this after all this time. :lol:
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To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
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matt21
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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To be honest, I do not see anything moving in the clip.
Can you point out where this TMD should be?

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strad
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Re: Red Bull ride height and flexi wing solved?

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Talkin about the wires. Thought we had this sorted.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss