Following closer

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Moose
Moose
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Joined: 03 Oct 2014, 19:41

Following closer

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So, I had a thought that may or may not be dumb...

The diffuser and rear wing both generate strong vortices that are rotating clockwise on the right of the car, and anti-clockwise on the left. The front wing, creates the Y250 vortex and sets up downforce for the rest of the car. The Y250 vortex needs to rotate anticlockwise on the right hand side of the car, and clockwise on the left hand side, due to the fact that the front wing needs to generate downforce, so it must have high pressure above, and low below; and due to the fact that the central section of the wing is standardised while the outer parts are not.

Suppose that standardisation was inverted - effectively, instead of having a standard aero-neutral centre section of the front wing, have a really narrow front wing... The effect would be that the Y250 vortex would naturally want to rotate clockwise on the right hand side of the car.

Doing this would surely dramatically reduce the amount of downforce lost due to following another car, by causing that car's wake to reinforce desired aero effects of the following car, not counter act them.

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godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Following closer

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In 2008 there was no neutral section, passing was even more rare back then.

I'm convinced that the real solution to allowing cars to follow better is to ban concave diffuser kinks, specify a minimum radius for the diffuser expansion, less diffuser instability, which means cars can follow closer. They'll still lose downforce but maybe they retain enough where they can take advantage of the slip stream. There are a lot of factors involved with following a car, right now the downforce lost is too great for slipstreaming to work. Perhaps just being able to follow a meter or two closer through mid speed corners could would be all that's needed to set up a pass.

Aside from following, the biggest obstacle to close racing and passing is the layout of the tracks themselves. The two worst possible features on a track, the features that decrease the probability of an overtake over a given lap the most are chicanes at the end of straights, and mid speed corners. The worst combination of course being mid speed chicanes at the end of straights. The tracks that don't have or limit these features are tracks that see a higher percentage of overtaking.

Of course a fine balance must be struck, if you only have high speed corners you end up with oval racing, if you only have low speed corners the track becomes boring. Tracks like COTA, Shanghai, and Baku have overtaking, tracks like Barcelona, Abu-Dhabi or Hungary do not have overtaking.
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PlatinumZealot
551
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Following closer

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It's the remaining "energy" in the air. There is barely any left after a ten horned beast just punched through it.

The cars ustilized flow structures to keep air clean and "energised" as it heads to the major downforce making surfaces. In doing so the efficiency of these surfaces increase and there just isn't any clean air left after that all of it's used up.

You need to either reduce the usage of the air stream (less downforce production) or add devices that can work on low energy air streams like suctions fans. I propose suction fans because performance can be maintained beleieve it or not it is a simpler way to solve this problem.
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DiogoBrand
73
Joined: 14 May 2015, 19:02
Location: Brazil

Re: Following closer

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People always mention the turbulence created by the wings, but I don't remember seeing someone mention the tyre wake.

Wouldn't it help to have a surface that hinders tyre wake, like those winglets they had before 2009:
Image
Or maybe something like they have on the FW12?:
Image

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: Following closer

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Unc1eM0nty
6
Joined: 01 Feb 2014, 15:18
Location: Yorkshire (Gods own county)

Re: Following closer

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The rooster tail needs trimming, that massive plum of air we see when it's wet needs to lay much flatter to the earth.

I'm worried that the FIA want to prescribe the rear end, that's not they way to go though, teams have to be given the freedom to innovate and push the boundaries.

Diffuser or rear wing, which would you say causes the most dirty air ?

Xwang
Xwang
29
Joined: 02 Dec 2012, 11:12

Re: Following closer

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They (FIA) could impose very small (and simpler) front and rear wings whose scope would be only to balance the car.
Then a reduction in fuel flow (and then power) should force towards more efficient cars with less overall downforce level.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: Following closer

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Has aero given more problems than contributions?

comparison's sake - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRaAMzqYxpE
Last edited by johnny comelately on 02 Apr 2018, 23:27, edited 1 time in total.

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godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Following closer

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
02 Apr 2018, 22:19
It's the remaining "energy" in the air. There is barely any left after a ten horned beast just punched through it.

The cars ustilized flow structures to keep air clean and "energised" as it heads to the major downforce making surfaces. In doing so the efficiency of these surfaces increase and there just isn't any clean air left after that all of it's used up.

You need to either reduce the usage of the air stream (less downforce production) or add devices that can work on low energy air streams like suctions fans. I propose suction fans because performance can be maintained beleieve it or not it is a simpler way to solve this problem.
What type of fans, like propellers? Those sharper image ionic toys?
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godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Following closer

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Unc1eM0nty wrote:
02 Apr 2018, 23:01
The rooster tail needs trimming, that massive plum of air we see when it's wet needs to lay much flatter to the earth.

I'm worried that the FIA want to prescribe the rear end, that's not they way to go though, teams have to be given the freedom to innovate and push the boundaries.

Diffuser or rear wing, which would you say causes the most dirty air ?
Diffuser by far is the more sensitive of the two, make the diffuser less sensitive by not having such aggressive concave kinks and you'd have closer racing. The diffusers on LMP cars have a more gentle slope by the regulations and they can follow each other closer. Granted passing isn't easy but cars can fight, I remember watching Sebring this year and they were wheel to wheel battling all race long.
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DiogoBrand
73
Joined: 14 May 2015, 19:02
Location: Brazil

Re: Following closer

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Unc1eM0nty wrote:
02 Apr 2018, 23:01
The rooster tail needs trimming, that massive plum of air we see when it's wet needs to lay much flatter to the earth.

I'm worried that the FIA want to prescribe the rear end, that's not they way to go though, teams have to be given the freedom to innovate and push the boundaries.

Diffuser or rear wing, which would you say causes the most dirty air ?
The thing is, the rooster tail is a byproduct of downforce, you can't produce significant downforce without throwing air upwards.

Also, here's one I think everyone should watch:


On this video they tell something that I didn't know back then, and I guess most people don't realize even now: A big factor in the dirty air is the longitudinal movement of the air, as opposed to the upwash. So simply reducing the upwash isn't gonna make for "cleaner air", in fact it may even make it worse, as represented by his DRS expalantion. One thing that spoils aerodynamic is the air moving forwards in front of the car, so even if the car is at 250km/h, in relation to the air it may be at 200, which makes a huge difference in downforce.
So perhaps decreasing the upwash alone may make no difference at all in the dirty air if the car is still creating a lot of drag and turbulence.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: 10 Apr 2015, 00:55
Location: Australia

Re: Following closer

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godlameroso wrote:
02 Apr 2018, 23:29
Unc1eM0nty wrote:
02 Apr 2018, 23:01
The rooster tail needs trimming, that massive plum of air we see when it's wet needs to lay much flatter to the earth.

I'm worried that the FIA want to prescribe the rear end, that's not they way to go though, teams have to be given the freedom to innovate and push the boundaries.

Diffuser or rear wing, which would you say causes the most dirty air ?
Diffuser by far is the more sensitive of the two, make the diffuser less sensitive by not having such aggressive concave kinks and you'd have closer racing. The diffusers on LMP cars have a more gentle slope by the regulations and they can follow each other closer. Granted passing isn't easy but cars can fight, I remember watching Sebring this year and they were wheel to wheel battling all race long.
The sportscar factor is interesting, is the difference because of tyre 's (open wheel) contribution to turbulence?

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godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Following closer

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That very well could be an influence.
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OO7
OO7
171
Joined: 06 Apr 2010, 17:49

Re: Following closer

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godlameroso wrote:
02 Apr 2018, 23:29
Unc1eM0nty wrote:
02 Apr 2018, 23:01
The rooster tail needs trimming, that massive plum of air we see when it's wet needs to lay much flatter to the earth.

I'm worried that the FIA want to prescribe the rear end, that's not they way to go though, teams have to be given the freedom to innovate and push the boundaries.

Diffuser or rear wing, which would you say causes the most dirty air ?
Diffuser by far is the more sensitive of the two, make the diffuser less sensitive by not having such aggressive concave kinks and you'd have closer racing. The diffusers on LMP cars have a more gentle slope by the regulations and they can follow each other closer. Granted passing isn't easy but cars can fight, I remember watching Sebring this year and they were wheel to wheel battling all race long.
LMP cars are cleaner by design (closed wheels & a canopy) and as such had smaller wakes than F1 cars. This factor isn't insignificant and while it does allow the prototypes to run closer, the slipstream by comparison is diminished.

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jjn9128
769
Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: Following closer

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Moose wrote:
28 Mar 2018, 16:38
So, I had a thought that may or may not be dumb...

The diffuser and rear wing both generate strong vortices that are rotating clockwise on the right of the car, and anti-clockwise on the left. The front wing, creates the Y250 vortex and sets up downforce for the rest of the car. The Y250 vortex needs to rotate anticlockwise on the right hand side of the car, and clockwise on the left hand side, due to the fact that the front wing needs to generate downforce, so it must have high pressure above, and low below; and due to the fact that the central section of the wing is standardised while the outer parts are not.

Suppose that standardisation was inverted - effectively, instead of having a standard aero-neutral centre section of the front wing, have a really narrow front wing... The effect would be that the Y250 vortex would naturally want to rotate clockwise on the right hand side of the car.

Doing this would surely dramatically reduce the amount of downforce lost due to following another car, by causing that car's wake to reinforce desired aero effects of the following car, not counter act them.
I've been trying to keep out of this, but here are my two penneth worth. You're assumption is that the the loss of downforce is from the trailing vorticity, not so, the main contributor to DF loss is the reduction of dynamic pressure () reducing surface pressure on the following cars surfaces.

The pressure coefficient is , where denotes a freestream variable, and you can calculate the downforce on a wing by . As the car moves through the air it sucks a load of air along behind, so you can essentially predict the reduction in pressure on the following car using . Note: I say essentially because there is an effect from up-wash and local non-uniformity of the airflow, but ~90% of the effect can be attributed to lower dynamic pressure.

Because of the dynamic pressure effect, the pressure on the surfaces is lower (both high and low pressure regions) so downforce is reduced. This will affect the Y250, FWEP, FWUF, bargeboard... etc vortices as the pressure difference is smaller because of the squeezed surface pressures, not because they are cancelled by the trailing vorticity.

Where this velocity deficit (the following car has a lower airspeed over the downforce producing surfaces) comes from is drag, where drag can be calculated from the change of momentum behind the car using, , basically drag is caused by the change in pressure and the change in velocity behind the car.

F1 cars are high drag compared to other series, e.g. Le Mans and Indycar - mainly because of the exposed wheels, but also because of less efficient underbodies and wings. So in 2017 when they made the rear tyres bigger and the diffuser longer, but not planar or convex - the cars got draggier, so the wake effect was amplified. Coupled with the fact that F1 cars generate more downforce than Indycars, it means the effect of the wake is a greater % loss of downforce, which has a bigger impact on the cornering speeds in the wake vs out of it.

So less total downforce, less drag, narrower wheels, maybe covered wheels, narrower cars, a long but straight/convex diffuser, will all most certainly help.

Apologies for the long boring post.
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"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica