CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula 1

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
xxChrisxx
xxChrisxx
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Joined: 18 Sep 2009, 19:22

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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raymondu999 wrote:Hey folks. Just wondering. As we know from miserable ventures such as Wirth and Virgin, CFD is not bulletproof. As teams such as Ferrari have shown us too, you can have an almost "faulty" CFD with bad correlation. I assume that plugging in numbers from the cars' sensors would allow the CFD to assimilate these numbers, and improve its correlation. So what "baseline" is open source/amateur CFD working from, and how accurate is it really?
There are so many solvers, and so many different turbulence models that it's too difficult to say.

CFD cannot fully model fluid flow (it's just too complex for even the fastest supercomputers), so we make assumptions about the flow, especially regarding turbulence . These are dealt with in smaller 'sub models' or just specifired values. When those assumptions turn out to be correct, we get an accurate simulation. When they are wrong, you get garbage out.

Then you get into situations where one turbulence model may be valid for high speed on a hot and humid day, but be wrong for a cold dry day. Or that it's valid at higher ride heights, but fails at low ride heights due to the inteaction with the ground.

The problem of not validating a model vs windtunnel and realworld testing is that you don't have a bloody clue why the model is spitting out rubbish. Even then you may get something that doesn't fully translate to reality, it's why CFD is a bit of a black art.


CFD is also --- for stuff like testing ride hieghts (and similar), where a windtunnel is fantastic. Each change in ride height, requires a seperate simulation, but in the tunnel it's a simple 5 minute job.

It's why the Virgin idea of CFD only was always doomed to fail.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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and all that posted above doesn't even begin to tackle the issue of getting your boundary conditions correct. (btw good post Chris)


How does the floor of a car react under dynamic pitch? Yaw? Cross-winds? Turbulence? Whats your engine exhausts doing? Whats your radiators doing? Steering angle? Tyre deformation? Suspension deformation?


Fluid-structure-interaction can make a stab at modelling your wing deflections, but its introducing yet another series of approximations (albeit pretty good ones).

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horse
6
Joined: 23 Oct 2009, 17:53
Location: Bilbao, ES

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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xxChrisxx wrote:The problem of not validating a model vs windtunnel and realworld testing is that you don't have a bloody clue why the model is spitting out rubbish.
You can attempt to eliminate certain factors regarding the fidelity of the model itself through a process called verification. This (attempts to) examine the errors for particular grid resolutions and allows the user (assuming they have enough grunt at their disposal) to minimise those errors by using appropriate grids.

The rest of the problem relates to validation, in that is the model capable of modelling the physics present in the real world situation? By comparing to the real world through experiments we can deduce how well a particular model can predict situations which are not easy to test experimentally. Models are often found lacking due to the numerous issues raised in the posts above.

Verification and Validation in Computational Science and Engineering by Patrick J. Roache is a great starter for learning about these issues if you can get hold of a copy.
"Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words." - Chuang Tzu

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
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Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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horse wrote:Verification and Validation
Erm. Yeah.


Sounds good on paper and agreed in general.


In practice. Unfortunately not so easy, not so easy at all. #-o

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horse
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Joined: 23 Oct 2009, 17:53
Location: Bilbao, ES

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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kilcoo316 wrote:In practice. Unfortunately not so easy, not so easy at all. #-o
Oh God yeah, I wasn't trying to imply the process is easy and I think the continued struggle of teams in F1 to design perfect parts illustrates that issue. There remains, as it were, a fair chunk of uncertainty in the process, especially for what are always prototype parts.

I must admit to finding the processes quite fascinating, however, and I'm attempting to push my career towards a better understanding of these scientific QA problems.

I think the main issue is the time it takes. Improved QA will help to provide better final parts but if you only make one the whole season, then why bother?
"Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words." - Chuang Tzu

astracrazy
astracrazy
31
Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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Hi Guys

Is there any low cost or free cfd programs out there? I'm making a model in google sketch and just want to run some basic cfd over it.

Thanks

shelly
shelly
136
Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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Openfoam is free. I think some teams use that already. Its performance is comparable to that of the leading commercial packages (starccm+, fluent).
twitter: @armchair_aero

astracrazy
astracrazy
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Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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ok thanks, i did see that when i searched google but just wanted to see if it was recommended by anyone on here. Is it simple enough to put sketchup files into i.e any conversions needed

thanks for your help

edit: this if for Linux though? I've got windows

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tomislavp4
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Joined: 16 Jun 2006, 17:07
Location: Sweden & The Republic of Macedonia

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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Not a problem, just install Linux side by side and you're good to go (it's called dual-boot)! All the good cfd software for Windows is proprietary and quite expensive :)

astracrazy
astracrazy
31
Joined: 04 Mar 2009, 16:04

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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well to be totally honest i've got a mac and the windows is on bootcamp. I guess i could install linux on parallels? soz i have taken this off topic. Perhaps someone could pm me with advice thanks

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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astracrazy wrote:ok thanks, i did see that when i searched google but just wanted to see if it was recommended by anyone on here. Is it simple enough to put sketchup files into i.e any conversions needed

thanks for your help

edit: this if for Linux though? I've got windows
I'm fairly certain a Sketchup file won't work in most CFD programs. You'll need to do your modeling in a higher end 3d CAD program. Autodesk inventor, Solidworks etc.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

shelly
shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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You just need to convert from sketchup to stl (i think there's a valid plugin form a guy that wanted to build an electric guitar) and then you are good to go with openfoam using the snappyhexmesh tool. Form the point of view of compatibility there is no need for better cad. A better cad would give you better surfaces and control of course
twitter: @armchair_aero

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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Wouldn't CFD accept a COLLADA file? AFAIK COLLADA is an industry standard for interchange. It's been a while since I worked with G Sketchup, but it can export to COLLADA, last I remembered.
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Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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raymondu999 wrote:Wouldn't CFD accept a COLLADA file? AFAIK COLLADA is an industry standard for interchange. It's been a while since I worked with G Sketchup, but it can export to COLLADA, last I remembered.
COLLADA may be common in 3d graphic design and gaming, but not sure it's that typical in engineering CAD work.

Standard Tessellation Language and Parasolid are definitely two popular "broad application" CAE formats.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: CFD - Computational Fluid Dynamics, Motorsport, Formula

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Aha. Never knew that - never did much engineering modeling to begin with.
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