Challenges in designing the new ground effect cars for 2022

[harshsr]

Apologies if a similar discussion has already happened.

Based on what we know of the historical ground effect cars, how do you think the teams will tackle the safety and reliability issues from the cars of the past?
Obviously track quality is a lot better than it was 40 years ago. The general chassis is also a lot safer.
Just wondering how teams will utilize the historical data while designing the new cars. Any speculations?

[Marty_Y]

Somebody will probably be able to give you a more detailed explanation, but in short the new cars won't use the "skirts" that the old cars used, as explained in the video above.

[Marty_Y]

[Stu]

Apologies if a similar discussion has already happened.

Based on what we know of the historical ground effect cars, how do you think the teams will tackle the safety and reliability issues from the cars of the past?
Obviously track quality is a lot better than it was 40 years ago. The general chassis is also a lot safer.
Just wondering how teams will utilize the historical data while designing the new cars. Any speculations?

Have read of the excellent series of posts/articles by @jjn9128 for a very detailed look at what is/isn’t allowed. There is some very informative discussion on the subject.

[Just_a_fan]

Just wondering how teams will utilize the historical data while designing the new cars. Any speculations?

I doubt they'll even have it and if they did what use would it be? The old cars used full length tunnels with sliding skirts and thus were nothing like the forthcoming cars which share more with IndyCars than the old Lotus 78/79 type cars.

Also, any data from back then would be pretty sketchy compared to the tools available today.

[SiLo]

The interesting thing for me to see is how much rake will they run on the cars? They already seal the floors off as much as they can with vortices, but the removal of the barge board areas being so complicated means it's much harder to do.

Why has this post been rated negatively?

[Stu]

The interesting thing for me to see is how much rake will they run on the cars? They already seal the floors off as much as they can with vortices, but the removal of the barge board areas being so complicated means it's much harder to do.

My best guess is that rake will reduce, the tunnel exits are, to a degree, assisted by the inner rear wheel ‘furniture’ (which WOULD lend itself to being effective with a high-rake concept); however, the horizontal floor edge probably mitigates against too much rake. There will undoubtedly be a sweet-spot, but that is likely to depend on the level of airflow control found from the strakes at the ‘tunnel’ entrance.
Bare in mind that these are not the same as the ‘ground-effect’ era cars, but an evolution of what is already done in the lower region of the current ‘barge-board’ array.
Coupled with the new suspension control system regulations, it is going to very interesting to see what the teams come up with!!

[theVortexCreatorY250]

Apologies if a similar discussion has already happened.

Based on what we know of the historical ground effect cars, how do you think the teams will tackle the safety and reliability issues from the cars of the past?
Obviously track quality is a lot better than it was 40 years ago. The general chassis is also a lot safer.
Just wondering how teams will utilize the historical data while designing the new cars. Any speculations?

Historical data (specific annyway) is useless. The era your refering to required sliding skirts which sealed the floor. Today's and next years cars are completely different, I think the media has hyped the term 'ground-effect'.

[theVortexCreatorY250]

The interesting thing for me to see is how much rake will they run on the cars? They already seal the floors off as much as they can with vortices, but the removal of the barge board areas being so complicated means it's much harder to do.

Why has this post been rated negatively?

TBH I think the whole rake disscussion is a bit iffy. The reason it's so talked about is because it's one of things the media can easily notice. Rake effects the reference plane which is what all the RV's (Reference Volumes) are based off - these define the places where body work can go. I think there are bigger talking points than the whole rake thing.

Regarding sealing the floor, this is a massive misconception. The entire front section of the floor is trying to do the opposite. They try to extract the air to maximise floor edge loading. The bargeboards create both co and counter rotating structures to the Y250. They bleed the counter under the floor to increase mixing and the co go over the top. In between these you get a massive lateral jet which helps with squirt management and floor edge extraction.

[El Scorchio]

I don't know if it's relevant to mention this here, but there was a snippet on Sky's post race show where it was mentioned (by Ted Kravitz, I think) that he'd been told (some of, at least) the teams have been able to recover all the initial laptime/speed lost from the new regs.

[SiLo]

The interesting thing for me to see is how much rake will they run on the cars? They already seal the floors off as much as they can with vortices, but the removal of the barge board areas being so complicated means it's much harder to do.

Why has this post been rated negatively?

TBH I think the whole rake disscussion is a bit iffy. The reason it's so talked about is because it's one of things the media can easily notice. Rake effects the reference plane which is what all the RV's (Reference Volumes) are based off - these define the places where body work can go. I think there are bigger talking points than the whole rake thing.

Regarding sealing the floor, this is a massive misconception. The entire front section of the floor is trying to do the opposite. They try to extract the air to maximise floor edge loading. The bargeboards create both co and counter rotating structures to the Y250. They bleed the counter under the floor to increase mixing and the co go over the top. In between these you get a massive lateral jet which helps with squirt management and floor edge extraction.

It's still a big part in controlling the vortices that run along the side of the car though that help seal off the sides of the floor from free air. Surely? I know that the main priority for the barge board and front floor area are to create downforce at that part of the car and also control the vortices that run along the step plane to the central diffuser section.

[theVortexCreatorY250]

The interesting thing for me to see is how much rake will they run on the cars? They already seal the floors off as much as they can with vortices, but the removal of the barge board areas being so complicated means it's much harder to do.

Why has this post been rated negatively?

TBH I think the whole rake disscussion is a bit iffy. The reason it's so talked about is because it's one of things the media can easily notice. Rake effects the reference plane which is what all the RV's (Reference Volumes) are based off - these define the places where body work can go. I think there are bigger talking points than the whole rake thing.

Regarding sealing the floor, this is a massive misconception. The entire front section of the floor is trying to do the opposite. They try to extract the air to maximise floor edge loading. The bargeboards create both co and counter rotating structures to the Y250. They bleed the counter under the floor to increase mixing and the co go over the top. In between these you get a massive lateral jet which helps with squirt management and floor edge extraction.

It's still a big part in controlling the vortices that run along the side of the car though that help seal off the sides of the floor from free air. Surely? I know that the main priority for the barge board and front floor area are to create downforce at that part of the car and also control the vortices that run along the step plane to the central diffuser section.

The entire first half of the floor has air coming out of it, they do this to help with tyre wake management and to extract load. The last half has inwash, most of the vorticies there get pulled inboard. Hence they used to use slots which would roll vorticies inboard on the rear tyre and provide localised downwash.

So generally F1 cars don't seal the floor with vorticies, it's a big media misconception.
The main 'vortex seal' is with the front wing footplate.

[SiLo]

TBH I think the whole rake disscussion is a bit iffy. The reason it's so talked about is because it's one of things the media can easily notice. Rake effects the reference plane which is what all the RV's (Reference Volumes) are based off - these define the places where body work can go. I think there are bigger talking points than the whole rake thing.

Regarding sealing the floor, this is a massive misconception. The entire front section of the floor is trying to do the opposite. They try to extract the air to maximise floor edge loading. The bargeboards create both co and counter rotating structures to the Y250. They bleed the counter under the floor to increase mixing and the co go over the top. In between these you get a massive lateral jet which helps with squirt management and floor edge extraction.

It's still a big part in controlling the vortices that run along the side of the car though that help seal off the sides of the floor from free air. Surely? I know that the main priority for the barge board and front floor area are to create downforce at that part of the car and also control the vortices that run along the step plane to the central diffuser section.

The entire first half of the floor has air coming out of it, they do this to help with tyre wake management and to extract load. The last half has inwash, most of the vorticies there get pulled inboard. Hence they used to use slots which would roll vorticies inboard on the rear tyre and provide localised downwash.

So generally F1 cars don't seal the floor with vorticies, it's a big media misconception.
The main 'vortex seal' is with the front wing footplate.

Have you got any diagrams that show what you mean? It might help me understand better.

[theVortexCreatorY250]

It's still a big part in controlling the vortices that run along the side of the car though that help seal off the sides of the floor from free air. Surely? I know that the main priority for the barge board and front floor area are to create downforce at that part of the car and also control the vortices that run along the step plane to the central diffuser section.

The entire first half of the floor has air coming out of it, they do this to help with tyre wake management and to extract load. The last half has inwash, most of the vorticies there get pulled inboard. Hence they used to use slots which would roll vorticies inboard on the rear tyre and provide localised downwash.

So generally F1 cars don't seal the floor with vorticies, it's a big media misconception.
The main 'vortex seal' is with the front wing footplate.

Have you got any diagrams that show what you mean? It might help me understand better.

I reccomend you look at this CFD.


It is noted that CFD interpretation can take a life time to master... Try to follow CpT sweeps in the x direction, these show the energy of the flow from front to rear.

[DP_CFD]

The entire first half of the floor has air coming out of it, they do this to help with tyre wake management and to extract load. The last half has inwash, most of the vorticies there get pulled inboard. Hence they used to use slots which would roll vorticies inboard on the rear tyre and provide localised downwash.

So generally F1 cars don't seal the floor with vorticies, it's a big media misconception.
The main 'vortex seal' is with the front wing footplate.

Have you got any diagrams that show what you mean? It might help me understand better.

I reccomend you look at this CFD.


It is noted that CFD interpretation can take a life time to master... Try to follow CpT sweeps in the x direction, these show the energy of the flow from front to rear.

Heh, neat to see this pop up where I don't expect it.

Anyway, I ask that you please include the article link when sharing the CFD, I want people to know not to take my results literally.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/simulati ... id-penner/