F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
Timstr
Timstr
8
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:09 am

F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

Hi all,

On the Autosport forum someone posted a rumour about Renault 2010 developments. One of the things is that they will have the ability to adjust the ride height during pit stops.
At first I thought it would be illegal, but I couldn't find anything in the http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulati ... nship.aspx-Technical and Sporting regulations- that prohibits this. 10.2.3 says: No adjustment may be made to the suspension system while the car is in motion. Which implies it can be done while standing still.

With a big weight difference between the early and last part of the race, an adjustable ride height might prove to be valuable to maintain downforce levels, which would normally be lost due the car riding higher as a result of the weight loss.

Is this feasible you think?
How would it work if feasible?

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:55 pm

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

c´mon ,that is basic mechanics .
the easiest ways it would be by hydraulics you could easily have some screw type adjusters on convenient areas to reach pushing on mastercylinder wich in turn raises extends the shock absorber or pushrod length per something like a hydrailic ram as seen in almost every motorcyle -spring preloader - also seen as wedge adjuster in ovakl racing. with the wheels of the ground at pitstop you could do this very quick .as the forces to overcome are really low you could even just use the gravity to adjust (opening the bleed simply and closing before coming back to the ground).so technically I can´t even explain why something like this was not on at least one car before 2010 as we have seen again and again that this could be a major advantage ...or not???? the rule stipulates only the non adjustability being mandatory from the cockpit and when driving ....
This is one of the points where I think it gets obvious that F1 is a lot more about money than clever simple thinking .

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
64
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:08 pm
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

Isnt this just what was a mass damper from 2006 in a passive form???

Id say if this was allowed, it would have to be done via a tool of some sort, simmilar to what the front wings are adjusted via. Id say that the cars could have 3 or 5 presets, and they guys at pit stops can go to them in a pit stop.

BUT... It is an intresting addition to the race strategy, where they cars will start as high as posible to get the best use of tyres in the early race due to high fuel pushing the car futher down, and later on the cars could be lowered when the fuel is lower, gain the best lap time.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:55 pm

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

we are talking about a quickchange of rideheights without disturbing the basesetup of the car during pitstops here,not some sophisticated suspension device....

but wait ....one could have a very very small bleed in that rideheight adjustment thru weight jackers...the height goes down over 2 hours from say 5mm to zero ,and presto we have a near perfect adaption to the lowering fuelload.. :mrgreen: no adjustment necessary only need to open the bleed on the pregrid ,raise the car on the lift ,close the bleed again and have the car lowering itself over the course of the race...still completely legal .

I bet on someone already finalising something along these lines already..

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

marcush. wrote:c´mon ,that is basic mechanics .
the easiest ways it would be by hydraulics you could easily have some screw type adjusters on convenient areas to reach pushing on mastercylinder wich in turn raises extends the shock absorber or pushrod length per something like a hydrailic ram as seen in almost every motorcyle -spring preloader - also seen as wedge adjuster in ovakl racing. with the wheels of the ground at pitstop you could do this very quick .as the forces to overcome are really low you could even just use the gravity to adjust (opening the bleed simply and closing before coming back to the ground).so technically I can´t even explain why something like this was not on at least one car before 2010 as we have seen again and again that this could be a major advantage ...or not???? the rule stipulates only the non adjustability being mandatory from the cockpit and when driving ....
This is one of the points where I think it gets obvious that F1 is a lot more about money than clever simple thinking .
The reason why this has not been done before might be that the effect is very little and the systems itself adds some unneeded weight to the car.
The little extra weight of the fuel will not change the ride height very much because you anyway need very stiff springs because of the high aero dynamical forces.

When I hear about Renault developing such a thing I suspect them to have a device that enables you to change ride height during driving. This would in fact add a significant advantage because then you are able to have low ride height during low speed corners and high speed ones.

Timstr
Timstr
8
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 11:09 am

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

mep wrote: When I hear about Renault developing such a thing I suspect them to have a device that enables you to change ride height during driving. This would in fact add a significant advantage because then you are able to have low ride height during low speed corners and high speed ones.
No. That is not allowed. Not while the car is in motion.

The talk is about the possibility of a quick manual adjustment to the ride height while the car is standing still during a pit stop.

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

Timstr wrote:
mep wrote: When I hear about Renault developing such a thing I suspect them to have a device that enables you to change ride height during driving. This would in fact add a significant advantage because then you are able to have low ride height during low speed corners and high speed ones.
No. That is not allowed. Not while the car is in motion.

The talk is about the possibility of a quick manual adjustment to the ride height while the car is standing still during a pit stop.
I know that's why I suspect them doing this (ok, Flavio isn’t there anymore) :D
Imagine they have a simple device for changing the ride height "during pit stop” by the driver. The driver would be in great temptation to also illegally use it during driving.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:55 pm

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

to my knowledge the difference between full and empty tanks in a 2010 car could be as much as 2.5 to 3 mm
Not much in terms of global value but surely a different part of the aeromap....so something to pay attention to.

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:48 pm
Location: Germany

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

marcush. wrote:to my knowledge the difference between full and empty tanks in a 2010 car could be as much as 2.5 to 3 mm
Not much in terms of global value but surely a different part of the aeromap....so something to pay attention to.
Ah quite interesting, where do you have these data from?
Furthermore it would be interesting to know whether they use progressive springs.
If they do so, it is a difference when you apply the fuel load to the static weight or to the weight under full downforce.
3mm sounds reasonable for progressive springs under static load.

gambler
gambler
1
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:29 pm
Location: Virginia USA

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

another way would be to let a little gas pressure off the shocks
(having started the race with more psi than normal)
may require a little different valving. with the chassis being
in lockdown mode as theyve been im not sure its even going to be an issue.

Michiba
Michiba
4
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:58 am

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

Hasn't this been discussed before? I thought that the weight of fuel would be somewhat insignificant compared to the amount of downforce generated and hence would not affect the ride height

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:55 pm

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

gambler wrote:another way would be to let a little gas pressure off the shocks
(having started the race with more psi than normal)
may require a little different valving. with the chassis being
in lockdown mode as theyve been im not sure its even going to be an issue.
this is not an option,as the gas pressure is not high to start with and they would not increase it as it would rob the dampers of sensivity (stickslip effects...).
a modern damper starts to move at around 20N of force and keeps moving under a load of 15N,gas pressure might be as low as 1-2bars...and you will not have a support of the chassis by the gas anyways as there is no reservoir as such.

coming back to the 2-3 mm I was referring to wheelmovement not spring/or damper movement ,and of course this reference was made from static scenario which is not
representing the whole story .As you mentioned it is very sure there is a lot of progression,by leveranles or bumprubbers or thrird springs in the system anyways to counter the increasing downforce with rising speeds so at the very end of the suspension movement(at high speed)the added fuel weight will not make a dramatic difference in ride height .

User avatar
ringo
203
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

A proper adjustment would be to have a screw adjuster countersunk on the nose of the car, between the bell cranks, which adjusts the front ride height somehow. This would be quickly adjusted by a wheel gun with a special fitting to mate with this adjuster screw.
Similar mechanics (whatever it is)can be used on the rear suspension between it's bell cranks.
A non pneumatic gun with a stepper motor that can be set to a predetermined # of turns to get the exact adjustment in ride height could be used. The adjustment should be faster than a wheel change.
All the pit crew man has to do is run out when the car comes in, use his ride height gun same time as the other wheel guys use their gun, wait till his gun gives him a click or green light, or whatever indicator , removes his gun steps aside and let the car get back out.
For Sure!!

Ian P.
Ian P.
2
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:57 pm

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

Not to beat a minor point to death.....but here goes.
Whether the tanks are empty or full or whether the course is high speed (high aero loads) or not, the incentive is to run the minimum ride height under any and all conditions. Full tanks, high or low aero loads, minimum ride height. Empty tanks....same goal.
What Renault is likely trying to do is change the suspension (spring) preload to achieve a constant ride height, not change it over the course (npi) of the race.
Shocks (dampers to be precise) have an externally applied gas pressure to prevent cavitation inside the damper assembly. Not to preload the suspension or intentionally affect ride height. While the idea may work on paper, there are other easier and more effective ways to do it.
Wedges, spring seat adjustments or actuator pivot displacement will all allow tweaking of the sprung mass (chasis) position relative to the ground.
You want The Plank as close to the track as possible under all conditions, but not so close it disapears into dust.
Personal motto... "Were it not for the bad.... I would have no luck at all."

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
507
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: F1 2010: Ride height adjustments during pit stops

Post

Make screw adjusters on the push-rods. Similar to ringo's Idea, but the adjusters are motorised (stepper motor) and they are all electrically wired to a single hub and can only be powered and adjusted from plugging in a hand held device into the side of the car during the pit stop. :mrgreen:

The mechanic just plugs in the device into a large port in the side of the car. The desired ride hieght is already entered into the device. Upon being connected to the port the mechanic presses a button. Power and a signal is sent to the stepper motors on the push-rods. In about a second or two the ride height is adjusted, a green light is lit on the device and the mechanic withdraws the device from the car. :mrgreen:
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||