Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

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flyboy2160
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by flyboy2160 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:27 am

turbof1 wrote:....Point is, you don't need to be officially educated in this.
I disagree 1000000000000000000000000000%

This is, by its name, a technical forum. You can't possibly get the equivalent of a university technical degree just reading posts here. There are far too many posts now that start out "I don't know anything about aerodynamics (or suspension or composites), but.......," followed by technically illiterate gibberish. That's why the F1 engineer mentioned in the post above doesn't read here anymore.

As I recall, this forum was much better technically years ago. There seemed to be more formally technically qualified posters as opposed to just F1 fans, who seem to predominate now. It's great to be a fan of the technology, but that doesn't make you qualified to give technical opinions.

Please provide poster blocking so that it's easier to get through threads by ignoring those who've demonstrated a thorough lack of technical knowledge or who needlessly repeat whole posts and whole previous picture strings.

tim|away
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by tim|away » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:07 am

This forum apears to have gone through a period of growth that some people don't appreciate. It is something that can be observed at a lot of different places. I am not entirely sure what the ranking system is supposed to achieve, but I assume one factor is setting the tone, i.e. discouraging users from posting rubbish and/or encouraging users to post quality respectively. Whilst I'm not sure the ranking system will achieve this goal on its own, it might at least assist the process.

I found the statistics very interesting that Steven outlined. The downvotes appear to be working much better than the upvotes, and yet they are limited. As the forum continues to grow, an influx of new members will arguably decrease quality whilst increasing noise. This is where downvotes (unrestricted or with less restrictions) come into play in order to attempt to point (new) members in the right direction, as noise seems to deter more senior members. If noise reduction is on the agenda, you need to consider that limited downvotes of few members are meeting an increasing number of new members at the moment.

I think providing feedback for a downvote is a good idea, as one can hope there is a chance of a learning effect. This would only make sense if the feedback is clear and additional information is provided when required. For instance, a guideline how quality is defined, what not to do etc. should be provided as a link with every downvote to the receiver.

Additionally, I'd love to see a feature that displays the highest rated posts, or one that orders posts in a thread by upvotes in descending order, the remaining posts in order by date. Think of it a bit like the amazon feature to see the most helpful reviews.

tok-tokkie
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Location: Cape Town

Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by tok-tokkie » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:56 am

I like the 'rating' system as it gives me a good guide as to which posts to pay attention to.

I would very much like an ignore button so I can suppress all the posts by certain users. There was one user whose posts I always skipped over & if that could have been automatic it would have been a big improvement in my opinion. A counter showing how many people are ignoring each user?

I am interested to see that the downvoting has been effective - particularly as the mods can then try to guide the member into how they would like this site to operate.

I am a member of a huge motorcycle site which has a very well regulated character & it is largely regulated by the senior members. If you post something out of line (like sugary praise whereas the style wanted is edgy but not bitchy) there will almost always be a biting post in response. The character of that site has become inbuilt whereas here there has been an awful invasion by fanboy crap which seems to be what the voting system is starting to remedy.

acosmichippo
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by acosmichippo » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:04 am

Steven wrote:Right, first of all, thanks for the feedback. Let's start by saying that, if we didn't know there was room for improvement, this thread would probably not have existed.

Secondly, I wish to point out that I believe, like several others here as well, that the voting system (or rating system as it should probably be renamed to) has already proven its worth, even though mostly on the downvoting side. I have gone through posts that gathered several downvotes, and in each case, the eventual post rating seemed fair. I personally believe this is working for two reasons. First, because the posts get hidden in the thread, allowing readers to quickly skip the pointless items. Secondly, because users with very negative ratings get put on the modqueue and are talked to. This has happened repeatedly, sometimes with positive outcome, sometimes with members getting banned. In both cases, the actions are justified and triggered by the community, which was the idea in the first place.
The downvotes that are given to posts that eventually end up with a neutral or positive rating is where the reason would come in handy, making the posters understand what is happening, and requiring the downvoters to think a moment before hitting the button. As said before, I'm working on that.

The positive ratings is where things are a bit more complicated and less efficient. People who want to see the system go also appear to target the upvotes in particular, as these are supposedly given for the wrong reasons. And indeed, they are sometimes.

However, what is probably lacking is a way to get value out of the ratings. Right now, this is limited to seeing the rating of a post, a thread or a member, but that's as far as it goes. Maybe we need to look for more possibilities here, creating an incentive for people to rate useful stuff while encouraging useful posts as well. Again, this was basically why the system was installed in the first place, replacing the postcount to prevent people from just posting to increase their rank.

Does this all make sense or am I on the wrong track?

In any case, a number of possibilities to make postcounts more useful could be
- A minimum post rating in the search form
- Some sort of highlite of the most recent upvoted post
- An accessible list (like "recent posts" or "active topics") that shows "recently rated posts"

Any thoughts / further ideas?
I agree with all of your reasoning, but it's tough to increase visibility of highly rated posts without sacrificing the chronological layout of threads and forum topics. Of course you could just sort everything by rating only, but then you ultimately end up with a site like Reddit - not a web forum. Best of both worlds would be great, but I'm not sure how that would work.

turbof1
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by turbof1 » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:06 pm

flyboy2160 wrote:
turbof1 wrote:....Point is, you don't need to be officially educated in this.
I disagree 1000000000000000000000000000%

This is, by its name, a technical forum. You can't possibly get the equivalent of a university technical degree just reading posts here. There are far too many posts now that start out "I don't know anything about aerodynamics (or suspension or composites), but.......,
Of course that isn't the equivalent, neither was that the point. The point was that even though you don't have the academic background, you can learn enough stuff here to be able to atleast discuss technical matter with the others. For the record this isn't nuclear physics we are talking about. Anyone with a bit of mind can draw airflow patterns and lines in their head to have an idea what is going on.
" It's great to be a fan of the technology, but that doesn't make you qualified to give technical opinions.
So you are basically saying there others that aren't "qualified" shouldn't give their technical opinion. That's very closed minded from you and is exactly the opposite this place tries to do. If it was purely an engineer forum, then this place would be closed and only allowed members would be able to view and participate in topics. Steven choose this to be open from the beginning. You joined in that same format, and that same format would stay. If you don't like that, you are free to leave.

Same for your mystery f1 engineer. If he feels he doesn't want to wade through the discussions, and yes sometimes the rubbish, then that's his choice. What has he contributed to this place? If you say what's true and he only came here to get some ideas, then he's practically taking somebody else their idea and claims at his office it's his. We don't need another leech to be honest.
Please provide poster blocking so that it's easier to get through threads by ignoring those who've demonstrated a thorough lack of technical knowledge or who needlessly repeat whole posts and whole previous picture strings.
I have a better idea: give the same option, but then to block intolerant people who sour up the place ;). We have moderators to do that, and moderators only should keep that option. We don't need abuse from member who feel "non qualified" people shouldn't be here.

A person doesn't get his brilliancy from getting a piece of paper he worked for at an university. This place is welcome for those who haven't or are in progress of getting it. Being officially an engineer here means squat, everybody stands equal and everybody needs to prove their value by themselves. Evidence for being qualified here is provided by what you show, not by a title.
#AeroFrodo

Pup
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by Pup » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:49 pm

I light of recent weirdness, I might suggest a limit on how many votes one member can give another within a certain time frame.
turbof1 wrote:Pup has spectacularly risen since the last month. You have to know that in thread 2 months ago he got undeservingly a lot of downvotes from Xpensive and one other ranting member. The turn around from that point is massive.
Easy come, easy go, so they say. Turns out the mods thought someone's appreciation for my posts was a bit excessive. A belated thanks to whoever it was, even though your effort was for naught.

smlbstcbr
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by smlbstcbr » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:27 am

One suggestion, often, when discussions are ongoing about a certain car or team, discussion arises for very specific items, like engine, gearboxes, brakes, tyres, chassis and aerodynamics of the said car. The mods usually split the ongoing discussion in the threads which are named like that.
What I propose is, that in place of having a thread for engines, aero, chassis and so on, to make a global page for the teams and put inside chassis, aero, suspension, like this:

Mercedes AMG
-----> Chassis
-----> Aero
-----> Engine
-----> Suspension
Williams
----> Chassis
----> Aero
----> Engine
----> Suspension
(Of course, engines can be a separated thread, but you get the idea)
And so on, in that way, the mods would not have to pick up between every comment related to a very specific item in a very specific car and mix it in another thread where the discussion loses the continuity.

notsofast
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by notsofast » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:38 am

If you're looking for ideas to make the upvotes useful, here's one. If a post is more than 5 days old, hide it by default unless it got upvoted. That way, I can quickly read up on an older thread. This would of course apply only in the threads where voting is allowed.

hollus
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by hollus » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:29 am

For me one of the uses of upvotes is to be able to come back after a week and skim a bit faster through endless thread pages. If there is no time to read all posts, the ones with plus 1 get a but extra brain time, and everything with plus 2 gets my full attention. Normally that is a good filter. But my normal mode is /Read all.
The suggestions that posts be displayed in rep order are a faster way to use that filter, but by breaking the discussion we risk than then people would reply to those things that have already been replied to several times, but which stayed at 0 rep and hence unread. Plus it is a bit like downgrading all other posts, now less likely to be even seen.
People have suggested background colors. A very subtle green for anything with a plus 1 and a shinier (but still elegant) green for anything with plus 2 or higher would effectively become a de-facto only positive filter for those who want it, as the background colour allows to select those for reading while scrolling fast. But you still get to see the posts around that one, which might relate to it as questions or replies. The color would have to be subtle to not become intrusive as there are so many plus 1 posts now, quite a few of which are just opinion or fan noise. And personally i'd not change the color of posts with negative rep. The current gray circle with a -1 and eventual collapsing are more than enough of a mental "auch" to be effective in conveying their message.

As for adding reasons to vote, it would increase the activation energy to vote. The teenager that clicks plus one in any post that suggests ferrari rocks would be less likely to do so if it took several clicks and some hand-eye coordinaton with a pull down list. But whoever thinks "that vote deserves to be recognized and highlighted for the others to see" is also likely to still go click-click-move-click for it. Only for the very good ones. There would be less votes, but I think we are now at the turning point where quality is more important than quantity. (IMHO).

And a last comment on how it works now. The rep is definitively weighed by number of posts, how could it not? The more you post the more likely you are to get plus 1s (and minus 1s). So the top rep list is also dominated by heavy posters. It is food for thought and an argument in favor of a votes-per-post rep score. But on the other side, who is better for this forum, someone who posts brilliant things but only posts once a month, or someone who posts good things in average and posts twice a day? I'd say both.
It is not white, it is not black, it is probably gray.

motobaleno
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by motobaleno » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:50 pm

today a user claimed that domenicali would have said the following:

- we have problems with rear tyre degradation
- engine too aggressive and too much torque
- we have problems running batteries at full power and we run during tests without full power (not cause we wanted to but cause we weren't able to do so)
- we lack in traction in slow corners and downforce in high speed corners
- we must run low downforce due to fuel consumption.
- Our engine has higher consumption and we are forced to run low downforce to reduce drag. In fact we recorded top speed but we are slow in cornering.
- Overall rumors agree we are far behind mercedes (more than 1s)
- Domenical in tv said we are behind mercedes and williams.. and not by a small margin. Focus is already on catching the competition

He took +4... :lol:

Richard
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by Richard » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:37 pm

motobaleno wrote:today a user claimed that domenicali would have said the following:
....
He took +4... :lol:
No anymore.

Fortunately someone else posted a better translation, I also popped that in the team thread because gossip about teams sandbagging is just gossip.

aral
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by aral » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:12 pm

I only watch the car thread for specific reasons, but it seems ridiculous that one person or another can theorise on something, (rightly or wrongly) and then the thread dissolves with a mass of off topic comments. Richard does a good job in trying to keep the thread on track, but why oh why must we have so many "qualified engineers" spouting that this or that should have been done? the engineers in the teams are the ones with the knowledge, and speculation (including criticism of the team engineers) has no place on a technical thread

donskar
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by donskar » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:30 pm

gilgen wrote:I only watch the car thread for specific reasons, but it seems ridiculous that one person or another can theorise on something, (rightly or wrongly) and then the thread dissolves with a mass of off topic comments. Richard does a good job in trying to keep the thread on track, but why oh why must we have so many "qualified engineers" spouting that this or that should have been done? the engineers in the teams are the ones with the knowledge, and speculation (including criticism of the team engineers) has no place on a technical thread
Right on, gilgen. It's amazing how incompetent real F1 engineers are compared to the geniuses on this site. If only RedBull had some of our members, they might finally build a good car. :lol:
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

Pup
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by Pup » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:24 pm

donskar wrote:
gilgen wrote:I only watch the car thread for specific reasons, but it seems ridiculous that one person or another can theorise on something, (rightly or wrongly) and then the thread dissolves with a mass of off topic comments. Richard does a good job in trying to keep the thread on track, but why oh why must we have so many "qualified engineers" spouting that this or that should have been done? the engineers in the teams are the ones with the knowledge, and speculation (including criticism of the team engineers) has no place on a technical thread
Right on, gilgen. It's amazing how incompetent real F1 engineers are compared to the geniuses on this site. If only RedBull had some of our members, they might finally build a good car. :lol:
Settled. From now on we'll all just sit and stare at each other hoping for an F1 engineer to come post something.

aral
Moderator
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Re: Voting system updates - Call for suggestions

Post by aral » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:53 pm

Pup wrote: Settled. From now on we'll all just sit and stare at each other hoping for an F1 engineer to come post something.
Great. But how do you know that there is not already a REAL f1 engineer posting here?

And why have you not as yet been snapped up by a team? :P :P