Moderating sucks

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strad
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Moderating sucks

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Whilst I understand Richards sentiments, I don't come to a Technical racing site to discuss the rights and wrongs of war or nationalism..
It is true that what we now call F1 started as country against country in the old Gordon Bennett Trophy races, however that ended somewhere around 1905....long long ago.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Shrieker
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: Moderating sucks

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Tomba wrote: we will NEVER accept any political discussion anymore.
I don't agree. Because of the current administration, censorship is on the rise here in Turkey. I am a member of a local forum dedicated to a certain subject, and there is a rule preventing political and religious matters from being discussed.

I just find it oppressing. What people can't solve by communication try to solve by compulsion. As long as there's no vulgar, insult etc. people should be allowed to discuss. Not in the car threads of course, but it fits in the off-topic section IMHO.


That said, a lot of responsibility falls onto the forum users' shoulders regarding this matter. If one or more posters persist to drag the issue -let's say in a race thread- things will eventually get out of hand and intervention will be necessary.

But cutting down freedom of speech just because things have a probability of getting out of hand doesn't sound right to me. Let people express themselves I say.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

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mx_tifoso
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Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:01 am
Location: North America

Re: Moderating sucks

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This is an F1 forum hosted by Tomba, please understand that he has been doing this for about a decade now and has established some norms and limits. Respect his house as you would like for him to respect yours.

So I highly doubt there will be tolerance for politics, especially with the charged situations currently taking place.
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Steven
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:32 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Moderating sucks

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Shrieker wrote:
Tomba wrote: we will NEVER accept any political discussion anymore.
I don't agree. Because of the current administration, censorship is on the rise here in Turkey. I am a member of a local forum dedicated to a certain subject, and there is a rule preventing political and religious matters from being discussed.

I just find it oppressing. What people can't solve by communication try to solve by compulsion. As long as there's no vulgar, insult etc. people should be allowed to discuss. Not in the car threads of course, but it fits in the off-topic section IMHO.
Shrieker,

I can perfectly understand your position, and I am fully against censorship of any kind, whether that is in China, Turkey or Belgium, it just doesn't matter.

However, what we're trying to do here is make this an interesting place for people that share a common interest (in particular motorsport or engineering). Back in the days there was strong concensus about banning (or cutting short) political discussions.

You know... we are all just human beings, also the mods, so whatever can be discussed calmly is allowable, but locking a political thread because it gets out of hand is just a matter of keeping focus, not censorship. There are lots of places where political issues can be discussed.

In the end it would be nice if some of us here see each other as friends.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Moderating sucks

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Of course there's nothing to stop a group of people moving a political discussion to PM if they wish.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

andrew
andrew
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Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:08 pm
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland - WhiteBlue Country (not the region)

Re: Moderating sucks

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I look at it this way.

We all see the amount of arguing that goes on over drivers, teams and races. Can you imagine what it would be like if political discussion was allowed?! Keeping politics out of the threads is the correct decision.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:51 am
Location: SU 419113

Re: Moderating sucks

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This is F1 related and pretty hardcore at that. If you want to discuss politics there are loads of places that cater fully to those needs.
Leave a link on your foot note, if anyone wants a debate they can follow that and dispense with whatever they have on their chest.

F1Technical is exactly that, F1technical. Turn it into a political soapbox and you will see how quickly the site will be filled with vitriolic spite.
My own view reflects that of Tomba's. Anyone wishing to discuss Politics on an F1 thread need to heed Godwins Law very closely:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches"

Its Hyperbole, but its not far from what happens on the internet.
More could have been done.
David Purley

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:47 am
Location: Downtown Canada

Re: Moderating sucks

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I firmly believe in Human Rights and Free Speech as a physical person. A physical person has rights. An avatar on a web forum is incapable of having the same rights.

I don't walk in to a harlequin romance novel book club of 50 year old women and start talking about Formula 1. If I did, when they ask me to stop or leave, and I refuse, they call the cops, or the big guy in the other room with the large stick. In real life there is accountability, which people tend to not feel online. Don't try calling the Internet Police, they don't return calls and never pick up.

There are reasonable limits to free speech in the physical world, as there are on the Internet.

As MX said, this is Tomba's house, and all of us are guests. I would never go to a house I was invited to (implicitly or implied) and disobey house rules.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:06 pm
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Re: Moderating sucks

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My intentions were to stay out of this, but what the hell.

- I don't subscribe to political threads, but politically tainted posts I think are difficult to avoid. Removing any post that touches a political subject would be risky I think, where do you draw the line, no comments on the situation in Bahrain?

- Neither do I subscribe to threads about pit-babes, Hamilton's girlfriend or boob-glaring in general. Some of the threads of the past have been disgusting in that respect and I fail to see what it has to do with F1T or how Principessa can see it?

But then again, this is Steven's house and not a democracy.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Shrieker
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: Moderating sucks

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@Giblet,

I for one try not to post stuff I wouldn't say in person. In the end maybe it all boils down to just that...


I see most people refrain from political debate because it can turn real ugly. I wish everyone was open minded enough to discuss without resorting to insults. I guess as a community we are not mature enough. Just think about it for a second; a place not dedicated to political/religious discussions, but can host plenty of those without things going wrong. That would only add to the value IMHO.

All that said -like the majority of posters here- I'm not here to specifically discuss these matters, but anyone who wants to do so (besides F1) should have the right to. But then again -like almost all forums- this place belongs to one individual only and his words are the law. If I want to keep on posting here that means I'm automatically abiding even though I do not agree.


But still...

-No law or ordinance is mightier than understanding.

Plato
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

manchild
manchild
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Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:54 am

Re: Moderating sucks

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I think, and I've discussed it with some other members, that problem obviously isn't when someone touches politics. No.

The post becomes problematic when it confronts certain type of opinion. One can write praises (that obviously include politics) about big business, how well some circuit was built in a dictatorship, nuclear energy etc, but if someone points out negative sides of previously praised issues involving politics, controversial and disturbing truths, than he gets labeled as the one who turned topic into political rant.

That is a rule here on on the forum. Unofficial but obvious rule, a bias, and I don't know why since this site isn't sponsored by any corporation or controlled by secret service of any country, and neither can it make less profit if forum members say what is on their mind.

Either ban any mentioning of politics or allow everyone to express their opinion. That would be fair instead of forcing people who disagree to swallow opinions they don't agree with.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:51 am
Location: SU 419113

Re: Moderating sucks

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Problem is shrieker, it is quite specific.

Unless another Bahraini instance occurs, there really is very little room for manouvre when it comes to political discussion in F1(non F1 politics).

And as Manchild has just touched on, when you polarise opinion, you get a reaction.
Wars have been started on the expressions of opinion, and looking at internet forum you can see why. Politics is very passionate for those that understand it, moderation is rare as people that post are usually passionate about somthing, again citing Godwins Law.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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747heavy
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:45 pm

Re: Moderating sucks

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It seems to me, that this site, despite it´s name, does not cater much anymore
for technical discussion.

On the other hand, it´s more and more occupied with fan-boy drivel, politcal and/or personal agendas and the like, and everybody seems to enjoy this more and more.

All fair and good - I get the message, enjoy the ride and thank you for the memories - good luck along the way.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:47 am
Location: Downtown Canada

Re: Moderating sucks

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There is not enough time to read everything, especially when there are reports to go through. These reports are usually because one person is pissed at another, over something their favorite driver did or didn't do. You'll find the technical discussions are less fiery, as engineering is all about quantifying. You can't quantify someones blind passion, and preference for an actual driver over another. it's fanboy crap and best left to other sites. We have lost some well respected members lately, due to the fanboy drivel.

There is not a lack of technical discussion, just crap posts drizzled all over the outstanding technical talk.

I would prefer all driver based discussion get their own section and never show up on the front page, but sometimes the driver discussions are reasonable and interesting at first.

The completely non-technical users here should really reconsider why it is they are posting on this site at all to begin with.

Funny thing, is the only people that seem to have a problem with the moderation, are the loudest and most obnoxious ones. If you are wondering if I am talking directly about "you" right now, that might a be an extra reason to rethink your tenure.

I have been blamed for bias, and I must admit this is true in a round a bout sense. If you are a non technical poster, and all you do is argue, you are useful as tits on a bull to this website, an the Internet in general. Nobody wins an Internet fight. You can't pixel punch. Its like being a parent. If both kids come to you yelling, what is the response?

"I don't care who started it"

If both kids come up with pictures from school, they get put up on the fridge at the same height.

Look at F1Snake. The chap loves F1, has some money, and beelined here for our help when he bought his F1 car. We should count ourselves lucky to have contact with this kind of person. I can just picture Steven beaming behind his screen when he showed up. On other sites, I can talk circles around most technically, but when I come here, I am just a guy with no math skills ;)
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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horse
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Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:53 pm
Location: Bilbao, ES

Re: Moderating sucks

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747heavy wrote:All fair and good - I get the message, enjoy the ride and thank you for the memories - good luck along the way.
It's a shame, 747, that you are upset enough to leave the site, but isn't it just a fact that the internet breeds an environment of conflict? It's like road rage, you don't see the human being behind the piece of steel that has just cut you up and therefore you act in an abnormal manner to what you might if that person had physically bumped into you on the pavement and said "sorry, excuse me".

And you are right Giblet, there are some non technical users here, I myself have been on a steep learning curve, but it's been highly educational for me and I would hate to think that you needed to pass an entrance exam to start posting. Also, even you or I might want to talk about drivers, team and non-technical stuff with the people we know here, so it would be a shame to outlaw such behaviour.

What I think I see here that is not utilised as well as on other forums are the "special powers" of moderators. OK, I know you guys do a lot of work cleaning threads and sorting conflicts, but a lot of that is behind the scenes work, that will not discourage bad posts (posters).

My personal feeling would be to utilise bans more often and start giving fixed penalties for poor behaviour. Also, I would consider creating a, as it were "oil slick" forum, where all of the crap threads could be moved, rather than locked, and the forces of evil can do their worst away from the main body of the forum. Alternately, a "gods" system could allow experienced users to have access to a region where they could have a less technical chat and it not get out of hand (this can lead to jealousy, however). Just some stuff I've seen used successfully (ish) before.

Anyway, I think the site is great and you guys do a great job. I know the frustrations of an unresolvable argument and it takes some maturity to walk away from it and move on. Perhaps "deep breath" smilies are severely required.
"Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words." - Chuang Tzu