2025 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[organic]

They aren't discovering the problems now. Last year they did well to salvage the season. They produced upgrades that allowed Verstappen to win at Qatar on pure pace and drive to victory in Brazil. They have since solved the rb20's main issues and after 2 rounds are only 8 points off the lead. They built a conservative base car, yes - they've been talking about doing this for 12 months. 9 months ago last year Horner was talking about how perhaps they made their car too complicated. They've made it simpler and now it behaves as expected. Now it's a matter of adding performance back sustainably without ruining the balance

Brazil was on Max, we all know that. But I concede that in the last races they recovered partially some speed. However this is not enough. I can understand that they needed to re-start from a more basic concept, but again, what they produced is not enough, and this is by their own admission. Hearing that they called a meeting to discuss this only in next days is a bit annoying. Now we are hanging on a mystical upgrade which we don't know when will arrive and how much performance will add to the car, so what can I say, let's hope !

The imola upgrades failed, the Hungary upgrades failed despite that package attempting to simplify the car. that narrowed down where many of the problems were. They went to Monza and Max's comments within the engineering meeting prompted them to dig into particular data and they uncovered the problem (that could be traced back to Barcelona 2023). they made a makeshift experiment for Baku that worked, then they produced a more permanent version for Cota and won two races. They were firefighting for 6 months. And then still come p2 and P4 in the first two races of the next season with a car designed to be conservative at launch (in my opinion).

They went completely wrong last year, and if they do so again this is the last straw for waché and co. but I really think the current issues are being overexaggerated.

The car lacks performance. But the team are not totally baffled.

[Sergej]

They aren't discovering the problems now. Last year they did well to salvage the season. They produced upgrades that allowed Verstappen to win at Qatar on pure pace and drive to victory in Brazil. They have since solved the rb20's main issues and after 2 rounds are only 8 points off the lead. They built a conservative base car, yes - they've been talking about doing this for 12 months. 9 months ago last year Horner was talking about how perhaps they made their car too complicated. They've made it simpler and now it behaves as expected. Now it's a matter of adding performance back sustainably without ruining the balance

Brazil was on Max, we all know that. But I concede that in the last races they recovered partially some speed. However this is not enough. I can understand that they needed to re-start from a more basic concept, but again, what they produced is not enough, and this is by their own admission. Hearing that they called a meeting to discuss this only in next days is a bit annoying. Now we are hanging on a mystical upgrade which we don't know when will arrive and how much performance will add to the car, so what can I say, let's hope !

The imola upgrades failed, the Hungary upgrades failed despite that package attempting to simplify the car. that narrowed down where many of the problems were. They went to Monza and Max's comments within the engineering meeting prompted them to dig into particular data and they uncovered the problem (that could be traced back to Barcelona 2023). they made a makeshift experiment for Baku that worked, then they produced a more permanent version for Cota and won two races. They were firefighting for 6 months. And then still come p2 and P4 in the first two races of the next season with a car designed to be conservative at launch (in my opinion).

They went completely wrong last year, and if they do so again this is the last straw for waché and co. but I really think the current issues are being overexaggerated.

The car lacks performance. But the team are not totally baffled.

Yeah I know the story, and just because I know the story (with repeated failed upgrades) I would keep my expectations low with respect to this upgrade, consider also that others won't stand still. As I said many times, I'm perfectly ok if this car won't let Max fight for the title after the wonders of recent years (I mean look at Ferrari, I feel sorry for the Tifosi), but the technical team will have something to prove in the next few races and re-gain some credit, I hope they will succeed in this.

[euv2]

Brazil was on Max, we all know that. But I concede that in the last races they recovered partially some speed. However this is not enough. I can understand that they needed to re-start from a more basic concept, but again, what they produced is not enough, and this is by their own admission. Hearing that they called a meeting to discuss this only in next days is a bit annoying. Now we are hanging on a mystical upgrade which we don't know when will arrive and how much performance will add to the car, so what can I say, let's hope !

The imola upgrades failed, the Hungary upgrades failed despite that package attempting to simplify the car. that narrowed down where many of the problems were. They went to Monza and Max's comments within the engineering meeting prompted them to dig into particular data and they uncovered the problem (that could be traced back to Barcelona 2023). they made a makeshift experiment for Baku that worked, then they produced a more permanent version for Cota and won two races. They were firefighting for 6 months. And then still come p2 and P4 in the first two races of the next season with a car designed to be conservative at launch (in my opinion).

They went completely wrong last year, and if they do so again this is the last straw for waché and co. but I really think the current issues are being overexaggerated.

The car lacks performance. But the team are not totally baffled.

Yeah I know the story, and just because I know the story (with repeated failed upgrades) I would keep my expectations low with respect to this upgrade, consider also that others won't stand still. As I said many times, I'm perfectly ok if this car won't let Max fight for the title after the wonders of recent years (I mean look at Ferrari, I feel sorry for the Tifosi), but the technical team will have something to prove in the next few races and re-gain some credit, I hope they will succeed in this.

You can't keep saying repeated failed updates and then ignore the pretty substantial upgrade that is the RB21 over the RB20.

They have also stuck with the new front wing which they fast tracked and a new floor, so there's 2 updates that are already working on the new car. The team has understood the problems and there's always a chance for updates to go wrong but I'll remain optimistic in the meantime and actually wait for the updates to go wrong before giving up on the season.

[mvfad]

Lawson has never won a Feature Race in F2 (in 2 years). This was a bad sign that was masked by his great performance in Super Formula and when he replaced Ricciardo. But I always had my doubts, maybe this year's Red Bull car is not for him.

[MYsee]

True. Big step for Yuki aswell. However need a driver who can put the car a space or 2 behind Max and pick up the points, the back of the grid doesn’t get anything.

Let’s face it, you could put 99% of the drivers alongside Max and it would show them up. There aren’t many who could do as good job as he does.

Yuki felt comfortable in the car testing, and he has more experience than Liam. This could just be too big of a step too soon for Liam.

[Sergej]

The imola upgrades failed, the Hungary upgrades failed despite that package attempting to simplify the car. that narrowed down where many of the problems were. They went to Monza and Max's comments within the engineering meeting prompted them to dig into particular data and they uncovered the problem (that could be traced back to Barcelona 2023). they made a makeshift experiment for Baku that worked, then they produced a more permanent version for Cota and won two races. They were firefighting for 6 months. And then still come p2 and P4 in the first two races of the next season with a car designed to be conservative at launch (in my opinion).

They went completely wrong last year, and if they do so again this is the last straw for waché and co. but I really think the current issues are being overexaggerated.

The car lacks performance. But the team are not totally baffled.

Yeah I know the story, and just because I know the story (with repeated failed upgrades) I would keep my expectations low with respect to this upgrade, consider also that others won't stand still. As I said many times, I'm perfectly ok if this car won't let Max fight for the title after the wonders of recent years (I mean look at Ferrari, I feel sorry for the Tifosi), but the technical team will have something to prove in the next few races and re-gain some credit, I hope they will succeed in this.

You can't keep saying repeated failed updates and then ignore the pretty substantial upgrade that is the RB21 over the RB20.

They have also stuck with the new front wing which they fast tracked and a new floor, so there's 2 updates that are already working on the new car. The team has understood the problems and there's always a chance for updates to go wrong but I'll remain optimistic in the meantime and actually wait for the updates to go wrong before giving up on the season.

Problem is that the RB21 has already missed the targets, as per declared by Waché, so even if it is an upgrade over the RB20 (was that difficult ?), it is not enough. Anyway I don't want to play the overly pessimistic role, just being skeptical about chance of turning the season around. We'll see.

[TNTHead]

Comparison of qualy laps Lawson Tsunoda. If Lawson lacks confidence due to the specific demands of the RB21 you'll easily are 1 s / lap on the backfoot.

[AR3-GP]

Problem is that the RB21 has already missed the targets, as per declared by Waché, so even if it is an upgrade over the RB20 (was that difficult ?), it is not enough. Anyway I don't want to play the overly pessimistic role, just being skeptical about chance of turning the season around. We'll see.

I didn't see anywhere that the RB21 missed targets other than that they didn't make enough progress to close the gap. They had the least amount of wind tunnel and CFD time. While that doesn't explain all of the gap, it didn't help them. Now they have some extra time so let's see how that factors into the season. They can afford to spend more time because they have more time. I bet they'll drop back to P4 in the WCC by June because of the second driver which will help with any last gasp push towards the end of the year.

I think the RB21 is clearly faster than the RB20 and has a much better a balance according to Max. It has improved on the weaknesses of the RB20 like being unable to use hard tires and improved efficiency. I think there is potential to be developed, and the car just needs more development time.

With that said, I think you mentioned early that it is annoying that Marko said they were already on a trajectory of sorts to close within 3 to 5 races, but now they will have a "crisis meeting". Crisis meeting is usually where you make that plan to catch up, so it doesn't sound like there's a big backlog of performance updates that was already in the works for the 5th race. It sounds like that stuff simply doesn't exist or the progress in the windtunnel since Bahrain test has not been good enough to reach Mclaren any time soon.

[organic]

Problem is that the RB21 has already missed the targets, as per declared by Waché, so even if it is an upgrade over the RB20 (was that difficult ?), it is not enough. Anyway I don't want to play the overly pessimistic role, just being skeptical about chance of turning the season around. We'll see.

I didn't see anywhere that the RB21 missed targets other than that they didn't make enough progress to close the gap.

I think the original comment you're replying to is referring to this quote by waché

“I am not as happy as I could be because the car did not respond how we wanted at times, but it is going in the right direction, just maybe the magnitude of the direction was not as big as we expected and it’s something we need to work on for the first race and future development,” he said.

But I believe this was made following the challenging days 2 and 3 of the Bahrain test where they discarded the floor and had lots of balance problems. Reading between the lines it sounded like waché had been hoping that the car's behaviour would be better/balance problems wouldn't be as pronounced, rather than referring to actually how fast the car was

Between testing and R1 they seemed to understand and solve many of the issues that arose in testing so I think if waché had been asked for clarification on those comments after china he'd probably want to change his position

On Marko's crisis meeting, the quote is:

"This week there is a meeting in Milton Keynes to discuss when and how we can close the gap," Marko told Sky DE.

"Until then, it's about scoring as many points as possible.

"We are worried, but it is not like we are throwing in the towel."

It's a long season and the opponents are far from perfect

[AR3-GP]

On the subject of pointy cars and Marquez comparisons, I really don't think anyone is in a position to doubt Red Bull's methodologies (or Honda). They won 4 championships with Max. The problem is not necessarily the development philosophy now anymore than it was 3 years ago when they were still the fastest. the problem is just that they haven't improved as quickly as the others in the latter part of the regulations set. That can be down to material errors in the development stages, and not the philosophy of the handling itself which Max has driven to much success.

[organic]

On the subject of pointy cars and Marquez comparisons, I really don't think anyone is in a position to doubt Red Bull's methodologies (or Honda). They won 4 championships with Max. The problem is not the development philosophy now anymore than it was 3 years ago when they were still the fastest. the problem is just that they haven't improved as quickly as the others in the latter part of the regulations set. That can be down to material errors in the development stages, and not the philosophy of the handling itself which Max has driven to much success.

I don't really understand it either. Watching Max's onboard he wants far more front end most of the time.. it just isn't a pointy car

[AR3-GP]

I agree. The fact that Red Bull has always suffered at FRONT limited circuits, since 2022, shows this has never been a pointy car. The opposite actually. A car that refuses to turn in low and medium speed corners. The pointy cars are the Mclaren and the Mercedes. Those cars have a nose that inserts itself so well which is why they don't overstress the front tires on front limited circuits.

[organic]

I agree. The fact that Red Bull has always suffered at FRONT limited circuits, since 2022, shows this has never been a pointy car. The opposite actually. A car that refuses to turn in low and medium speed corners. The pointy cars are the Mclaren and the Mercedes. Those cars have a nose that inserts itself so well which is why they don't overstress the front tires on front limited circuits.

To follow up on your earlier point Re: Marko and the meeting

This is a second quote on the subject I just came across

"Max will visit the factory next week to discuss where the weak spots are," he told Motorsport NL.

"We have to improve the car as quickly as possible, but we know it will take time. We have seen that the picture can differ per circuit and even per compound.

"McLaren is clearly ahead and we have to find something to counter that."

Basically this concedes that the idea that the round 3-5 update can bring wins again is highly unlikely

[Juzh]

I agree. The fact that Red Bull has always suffered at FRONT limited circuits, since 2022, shows this has never been a pointy car. The opposite actually. A car that refuses to turn in low and medium speed corners. The pointy cars are the Mclaren and the Mercedes. Those cars have a nose that inserts itself so well which is why they don't overstress the front tires on front limited circuits.

I still remember the absolute boat that was early 2022 car, but it somehow suited perez as he can't handle even a sniff of oversteer.

And lets not forget this classic from last year:

[AR3-GP]

Basically this concedes that the idea that the round 3-5 update can bring wins again is highly unlikely

True, but I think the next 3 races are naturally much more kind to Red Bull. Australia and Shanghai are fundamentally two of the absolute worst circuits to have opened the season with for a Red Bull chassis.

I think that in Japan/Jeddah/Bahrain, Max can race in that territory like Spain/Imola/Qatar last season where Mclaren is still quicker, but not so quick that Max can't make any difference? Suzuka is a Max track. Jeddah should suit the car's aero efficiency (area where Mclaren appears weak so far). Mclaren speculated that they would be weaker in Bahrain as well.

I really do think the flex wings thing is not an insignificant detail. It was delayed until Rd 9 at the insistence of the teams who felt they would be impacted the most. Compare that to how quickly the rear wing stuff was addressed. The Mclaren drivers are saying that car is tricky to drive so losing that front wing might disrupt them a bit. Who knows.

The rest of the season needs some good development from Red Bull combined with Mclaren getting nerfed a bit by the front wing test changes. Mercedes will also be hit by that.