2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Pat Pending
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Fast charging battery - https://www.mahle-powertrain.com/en/new ... logy-85632
Obviously early days but shows that battery tech is developing in that direction.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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henry wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:57 am
wuzak wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:52 am
FW17 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:21 am
Can the engine charge the MGU K when off throttle?
But that is burning fuel to convert to electrical energy. Not sure if that is desirable either.
The regs pretty much ban the part throttle use of this technique. ........

5.1.6 At partial load ....
- Q (kg/h) = 0.257 x engine power (kW) + 22.85 when the engine power is above -50kW
maybe I don't understand this .... but ....
isn't the above saying ? (eg simplest case ie accelerator set to give zero engine torque) .. fuel flow can be 22.85 kg/h ...

isn't this roughly 120 kW generation ? .....
for all positive torques with partial accelerator settings ?

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Pat Pending wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:17 am
Fast charging battery - https://www.mahle-powertrain.com/en/new ... logy-85632
Obviously early days but shows that battery tech is developing in that direction.
Also, I found this.( Please excuse I have also posted it on the Electric car thread)

A small easily exchangeable power pack possibly? They will not mind that it is non rechargeable, it is for the convenience. And if they do, well they may fix it

I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it-
Voltaire, or several other claimants.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:39 pm
Also, I found this.( Please excuse I have also posted it on the Electric car thread)

A small easily exchangeable power pack possibly? They will not mind that it is non rechargeable, it is for the convenience. And if they do, well they may fix it
The Al-air battery popped up a few times in past years.
Since "road relevance" pops up very frequently I say it's a no-go. Since it requires producing aluminum metal it doesn't have much viability in the real world. Essentially a fuel cell with a very troublesome fuel. Why not use a practical fuel?

If the rechargeability could be solved it would have been solved already. It looks rather impossible.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:48 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:39 pm
Also, I found this.( Please excuse I have also posted it on the Electric car thread)

A small easily exchangeable power pack possibly? They will not mind that it is non rechargeable, it is for the convenience. And if they do, well they may fix it
The Al-air battery popped up a few times in past years.
Since "road relevance" pops up very frequently I say it's a no-go. Since it requires producing aluminum metal it doesn't have much viability in the real world. Essentially a fuel cell with a very troublesome fuel. Why not use a practical fuel?

If the rechargeability could be solved it would have been solved already. It looks rather impossible.
The main problems seem to be shelf life and the cost of the silver used in construction. Assuming F1 teams themselves, or a supplier such as with tyres, would have the equipment to rebuild them, the same material would be reused.

Not ideal that they can not be recharged, but there are many other uses for this type of battery other than directly driving road vehicles. If the shelf life could be extended, which they refer to looking up in the vid, a small unit installed or transportable for an electric car could become an emergency 'get you home' which could ease 'range anxiety' knowing you would not get stranded or for a planned longer trip
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it-
Voltaire, or several other claimants.

gruntguru
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Ferry wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:19 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:51 pm
Supercapcitors and ultracapacitors are capacitors.
Well yea, but so are tantalums, ceramics and plastic film capacitors too. If you mean supercapacitor you should use that term. They are quite different from regular capacitors. High capacitance, but low voltage. So you need a lot of them in series to handle the voltage in a F1 car.
The post you were responding to said that capacitors might be a solution for higher storage rates. He didn't say what type of capacitor and your response was incorrect in claiming that a "capacitor" would not do the job.

If you said that a tanker might be a solution to shipping large quantities of liquid across the ocean and I said "No! - you would need to use a supertanker" - I would be pedantic and stupid wouldn't I?
je suis charlie

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henry
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:14 pm
henry wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:57 am
wuzak wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:52 am

The regs pretty much ban the part throttle use of this technique. ........

5.1.6 At partial load ....
- Q (kg/h) = 0.257 x engine power (kW) + 22.85 when the engine power is above -50kW
maybe I don't understand this .... but ....
isn't the above saying ? (eg simplest case ie accelerator set to give zero engine torque) .. fuel flow can be 22.85 kg/h ...

isn't this roughly 120 kW generation ? .....
for all positive torques with partial accelerator settings ?
Thanks for this. At the other end of the scale at 100 kg/h the matching power is 300kW. I’ve never understood the implication of that. This curve gives headroom to use fuel to power the K.

This means that, other than the taper with revs, there isn’t a restriction on part throttle K harvesting.

I still I don’t know what this reg does control. It seems to use “engine” when they mean PU. But I don’t think that impinges on the use of the K in 2025 regs.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:48 pm
Ferry wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 10:19 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:51 pm
Supercapcitors and ultracapacitors are capacitors.
Well yea, but so are tantalums, ceramics and plastic film capacitors too. If you mean supercapacitor you should use that term. They are quite different from regular capacitors. High capacitance, but low voltage. So you need a lot of them in series to handle the voltage in a F1 car.
The post you were responding to said that capacitors might be a solution for higher storage rates. He didn't say what type of capacitor and your response was incorrect in claiming that a "capacitor" would not do the job.

If you said that a tanker might be a solution to shipping large quantities of liquid across the ocean and I said "No! - you would need to use a supertanker" - I would be pedantic and stupid wouldn't I?
Let it be, it was just being simple, because someone mentioned, that a battery could not be charged with 1000kw, without further details about the circumstances. I mean, Tesla already introduced 250kw charging, and other companies already are experementing with 350 and 600kw charging.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:22 pm
Let it be, it was just being simple, because someone mentioned, that a battery could not be charged with 1000kw, without further details about the circumstances. I mean, Tesla already introduced 250kw charging, and other companies already are experementing with 350 and 600kw charging.
Those are huge battery packs with water cooling. And if memory serves, even then they can't be fully charged from mostly discharged state. Under several minutes.

Also you said this silly thing:
NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:13 pm
mzso wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:54 pm

No battery would take that even if it was possible to deliver 1000kW.
Than use a capacitor :roll: as a buffer
But buffer what and how? You want to charge something in seconds. So you would charge a pack of capacitors with horrible energy density with all the energy. Which would what? Charge another pack but of batteries at a slower rate?

Also:
NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:32 pm
With 1000kw charging, 1s charges as much as 3s of 350kw brake recovery.
4s of charge could be as much as a full lap of brake recovery.
I doubt EV quick chargers even start to charge within 4 seconds, much less at full rate.
Connectors need to be connected/removed securely and charging needs to be started securely, after some sort of confirmation of proper connection and insulation.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:30 pm
mzso wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:48 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:39 pm
Also, I found this.( Please excuse I have also posted it on the Electric car thread)

A small easily exchangeable power pack possibly? They will not mind that it is non rechargeable, it is for the convenience. And if they do, well they may fix it
The Al-air battery popped up a few times in past years.
Since "road relevance" pops up very frequently I say it's a no-go. Since it requires producing aluminum metal it doesn't have much viability in the real world. Essentially a fuel cell with a very troublesome fuel. Why not use a practical fuel?

If the rechargeability could be solved it would have been solved already. It looks rather impossible.
The main problems seem to be shelf life and the cost of the silver used in construction. Assuming F1 teams themselves, or a supplier such as with tyres, would have the equipment to rebuild them, the same material would be reused.

Not ideal that they can not be recharged, but there are many other uses for this type of battery other than directly driving road vehicles. If the shelf life could be extended, which they refer to looking up in the vid, a small unit installed or transportable for an electric car could become an emergency 'get you home' which could ease 'range anxiety' knowing you would not get stranded or for a planned longer trip
There's some blatant truth bending in the video. He claims at one point that aluminium is very light, ignoring the fact that lithium is the lightest metal. But more obnoxiously he compares the theoretical energy density of Li-O2 to practical Li-ion technology, which is ridiculous. Li-Air has even better theoretical values. (And would be rechargeable)

The recyclability is a tad iffy. Seeing that it is mainly pushed by a petrol company that salivates over all the money it cam mooch off by only being possible to replace the batteries at their stations.
No values whatsoever is provided for the aluminium recycling efficiency. I think it's very likely super inefficient, probably the same electrolysis process the use for producing aluminium from minerals.
To begin with aluminium-air is not rechargeable because it's very difficult to reverse the process. Aluminium oxide is a rather stable material.

With the other big issues with it I don't see "shelf life" as a significant problem. You just don't immerse it in electrolyte (water) until you don't use it.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:58 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:30 pm
mzso wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:48 pm

The Al-air battery popped up a few times in past years.
Since "road relevance" pops up very frequently I say it's a no-go. Since it requires producing aluminum metal it doesn't have much viability in the real world. Essentially a fuel cell with a very troublesome fuel. Why not use a practical fuel?

If the rechargeability could be solved it would have been solved already. It looks rather impossible.
The main problems seem to be shelf life and the cost of the silver used in construction. Assuming F1 teams themselves, or a supplier such as with tyres, would have the equipment to rebuild them, the same material would be reused.

Not ideal that they can not be recharged, but there are many other uses for this type of battery other than directly driving road vehicles. If the shelf life could be extended, which they refer to looking up in the vid, a small unit installed or transportable for an electric car could become an emergency 'get you home' which could ease 'range anxiety' knowing you would not get stranded or for a planned longer trip
There's some blatant truth bending in the video. He claims at one point that aluminium is very light, ignoring the fact that lithium is the lightest metal. But more obnoxiously he compares the theoretical energy density of Li-O2 to practical Li-ion technology, which is ridiculous. Li-Air has even better theoretical values. (And would be rechargeable)

The recyclability is a tad iffy. Seeing that it is mainly pushed by a petrol company that salivates over all the money it cam mooch off by only being possible to replace the batteries at their stations.
No values whatsoever is provided for the aluminium recycling efficiency. I think it's very likely super inefficient, probably the same electrolysis process the use for producing aluminium from minerals.
To begin with aluminium-air is not rechargeable because it's very difficult to reverse the process. Aluminium oxide is a rather stable material.

With the other big issues with it I don't see "shelf life" as a significant problem. You just don't immerse it in electrolyte (water) until you don't use it.
That's the problem with vid's like these. They are OK for information, as long as you don't need to know too deep.
Anything presented in an entertainment context is going to gloss over the 'one small thing that stops it being world changing' for the sake of making it watchable.

I enjoy them, but trust none that do not have a link to peer reviewed studies.
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it-
Voltaire, or several other claimants.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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So the al-air battery could work as a range extender for EV’s. Like when doing a vacation trip with the camping trailer hooked. I can see interest in that, pay a little extra for more range on an incidental long trip.

At least in medium-short term. I mean, if they are going to promote sustainable combustion of fuel, why not promote a single use, swappable battery?

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:28 pm
So the al-air battery could work as a range extender for EV’s. Like when doing a vacation trip with the camping trailer hooked. I can see interest in that, pay a little extra for more range on an incidental long trip.

At least in medium-short term. I mean, if they are going to promote sustainable combustion of fuel, why not promote a single use, swappable battery?
I think a fuel cell with a more practical fuel than aluminium would work better.