Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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_cerber1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:40 am
Could you give me a link for that? I can't find it. Thanks.


Also, you can find articles about this in the press where Marko says the same thing.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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_cerber1 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:55 am
Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:40 am
Could you give me a link for that? I can't find it. Thanks.


Also, you can find articles about this in the press where Marko says the same thing.
I did indeed get this. I didn't know that's what you meant by "Honda said that they could only give 4 kW."

Honda has said that a new Mercedes ICE has 15 kW more power than an old one.
The Honda ICE has almost no power loss, so the difference between an old and a new one is only 3 Kw.
However, he does not speak here about how much power they can still release with the used ICE and that is not 3 kW,
but a bit more.
Honda has been very frugal with releasing power so that they have something left for the final races.
That's how they've always worked. Saving the best for last. :-)

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Honda wear and tear is reportedly one tenth to end of life according to Horner. An extremely good figure. Probaby their new chrome ceramic material?

Since Honda has a wear advantage, and are in the situation that this championship is the most important to them, they would do what they did in 2019 and 2020 which is use Toro Rosso to test new modes during the season. Did they?

No one detected that this year even after to many opportunities.

This is why I can reasonably say the engine is right now close to peak. And this is not a material durability issue. This is a combustion limited / fuel consumption limit.

I could hazard aguess and say Honda tried more power in Quatar but the combustion didn't give much more. I was trying to compare cooling openings in Quatar and Brazil but didn't get around to it.

We will see in the next two races.
... . almost. there . sTiLl.. WE...RisE. ..

🚀 🏎️ ✊ Soon my people ✊🏎️🚀

Marty_Y
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:15 am
_cerber1 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:55 am
Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:40 am
Could you give me a link for that? I can't find it. Thanks.


Also, you can find articles about this in the press where Marko says the same thing.
I did indeed get this. I didn't know that's what you meant by "Honda said that they could only give 4 kW."

Honda has said that a new Mercedes ICE has 15 kW more power than an old one.
The Honda ICE has almost no power loss, so the difference between an old and a new one is only 3 Kw.
However, he does not speak here about how much power they can still release with the used ICE and that is not 3 kW,
but a bit more.
Honda has been very frugal with releasing power so that they have something left for the final races.
That's how they've always worked. Saving the best for last.
:-)
Would that mean that Max would need to take a new engine? Because I would have thought the engines he has have done a lot of races and it would be risky to turn it up too much?

I've got to give credit to Honda this year though, they have produced a power unit which is highly competitive and extremely reliable, which is a real achievement.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Marty_Y wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:44 pm
Would that mean that Max would need to take a new engine? Because I would have thought the engines he has have done a lot of races and it would be risky to turn it up too much?

I've got to give credit to Honda this year though, they have produced a power unit which is highly competitive and extremely reliable, which is a real achievement.
.
He doesn't need a new engine.
Max had to drive 12 races with PU 3 and 4. Spa did not go through and Monza was only half a game.
So for two PU's only 10 1/2 race. For these last two races they obviously use the PU that has driven the least number of km.
So that PU is not that old.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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_cerber1 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:04 am


According to Marko, they were shocked by the power that they saw in the Brazilian Hamilton motor, according to their estimates, he was able to add an additional 15 kW, for a similar request, Honda said that they could only give 4 kW.
it must be without breaching fuel flow limit or staying in rule of 160 kw. fia should investigate merc's chemical and electric usage and send td like they did for Honda. A slower team can not be faster based on nothing

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:15 am
_cerber1 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:55 am
Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:40 am
Could you give me a link for that? I can't find it. Thanks.


Also, you can find articles about this in the press where Marko says the same thing.
I did indeed get this. I didn't know that's what you meant by "Honda said that they could only give 4 kW."

Honda has said that a new Mercedes ICE has 15 kW more power than an old one.
The Honda ICE has almost no power loss, so the difference between an old and a new one is only 3 Kw.
However, he does not speak here about how much power they can still release with the used ICE and that is not 3 kW,
but a bit more.
Honda has been very frugal with releasing power so that they have something left for the final races.
That's how they've always worked. Saving the best for last. :-)
Thats what Tanabe san had said a few weeks ago and if not next one they will release horses at last one on the contrary of PZ's wishful thinking wished

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The initial design was 3 powerunits for 24 races, that means 8 races per unit.

Max did 10 races with the first 2 pu’s. The total will be 22 races. So only 12 races for his 3rd and 4rd pu together. One did 4.1 race, the other 5 races, so they will be fine, even if they run it a little higher, which Honda probably will do in the last 2 races.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I also expect that they will run it at higher mode because waiting last race maybe too risky. maybe last race highest without damaging race finish even if they don't need. ( if they win ceddah they don't need it.

Pany
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:10 pm
Marty_Y wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:44 pm
Would that mean that Max would need to take a new engine? Because I would have thought the engines he has have done a lot of races and it would be risky to turn it up too much?

I've got to give credit to Honda this year though, they have produced a power unit which is highly competitive and extremely reliable, which is a real achievement.
.
He doesn't need a new engine.
Max had to drive 12 races with PU 3 and 4. Spa did not go through and Monza was only half a game.
So for two PU's only 10 1/2 race. For these last two races they obviously use the PU that has driven the least number of km.
So that PU is not that old.
You mean pu number 3 has been used in alternate with pu4 in the last 5 6 gps? Good news. Could be pu 4 has done only 4 gps maybe

Farsari
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Does anyone have a detailed breakdown of which PU's were used in which specific GP's? That might give us a clear view on how many km's they did and how much is left in them.

pb6797
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Farsari wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:17 pm
Does anyone have a detailed breakdown of which PU's were used in which specific GP's? That might give us a clear view on how many km's they did and how much is left in them.
I think only the teams know that.

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Wouter
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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pb6797 wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:56 pm
Farsari wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:17 pm
Does anyone have a detailed breakdown of which PU's were used in which specific GP's? That might give us a clear view on how many km's they did and how much is left in them.
I think only the teams know that.
It doesn't really matter that much, because the PU loses very little power every race due to very little wear.
I trust Honda, they know what they are doing. :)

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Farsari wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:17 pm
Does anyone have a detailed breakdown of which PU's were used in which specific GP's? That might give us a clear view on how many km's they did and how much is left in them.
PU1: Bahrein - Azarbijan 6 races, the Friday engine for rest of the season probably.
PU2: France - Gr.Britain 4 races, rekked by Hamilton :wink:

PU3: Hungary - Italy 3.1 races, Belgium wasn’t a full race
PU4: Russia

Turkey USA Mexico Brasil Qatar is a mystery

So it it still a secret how the last 2 pu’s are used, but it is certain they don’t need to run the 8 races, they were designed to do. Probably 5 or 6 per unit.

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Stu
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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NL_Fer wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:05 pm
Farsari wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:17 pm
Does anyone have a detailed breakdown of which PU's were used in which specific GP's? That might give us a clear view on how many km's they did and how much is left in them.
PU1: Bahrein - Azarbijan 6 races, the Friday engine for rest of the season probably.
PU2: France - Gr.Britain 4 races, rekked by Hamilton :wink:

PU3: Hungary - Italy 3.1 races, Belgium wasn’t a full race
PU4: Russia

Turkey USA Mexico Brasil Qatar is a mystery

So it it still a secret how the last 2 pu’s are used, but it is certain they don’t need to run the 8 races, they were designed to do. Probably 5 or 6 per unit.
However Mercedes (Hamilton) will only do maybe 2 (maximum 3) either the super-duper ‘Brazil’ unit turned up to 11.
I really hope that engine usage doesn’t push them past the budget cap….
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...