2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:52
El Scorchio wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:38
ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:24

I always tailgate slow cars in the left lane... yes I'm an asshole, but I know my car's braking capabilities are much higher than the one in front of me. If you don't KNOW your car's braking capability (or your own...) don't tailgate, just don't #-o
In the context of a motor race, what you just said makes literally no sense. If tailgating is a no no in formula 1 racing then every driver in every race is braking the rules.
It does... you only tailgate because you know what you and your front driver are doing. If you don't (don't know your capabilities) you don't. And yes mistakes tend to happen, but there was no reason for Hamilton to tailgate Verstappen unless he knew what Verstappen was doing (he didn't want to go over the DRS line). That's why Hamilton deserved the penalty more than Verstappen in my opinion.

And I'm going to quote this one from motorsports.com:
https://imgur.com/lEj14HJ.png
There is no such thing called tailgating in racing. What a silly concept! How does that work? Don't racing cars drive bumper to bumper all the time? What are you going to do ban 18 of 20 cars for getting too close on lap 1 and whenever they take slip stream?
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

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dans79
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Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
Location: USA

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:52
El Scorchio wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:38
ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:24

I always tailgate slow cars in the left lane... yes I'm an asshole, but I know my car's braking capabilities are much higher than the one in front of me. If you don't KNOW your car's braking capability (or your own...) don't tailgate, just don't #-o
In the context of a motor race, what you just said makes literally no sense. If tailgating is a no no in formula 1 racing then every driver in every race is braking the rules.
It does... you only tailgate because you know what you and your front driver are doing. If you don't (don't know your capabilities) you don't. And yes mistakes tend to happen, but there was no reason for Hamilton to tailgate Verstappen unless he knew what Verstappen was doing (he didn't want to go over the DRS line). That's why Hamilton deserved the penalty more than Verstappen in my opinion.

And I'm going to quote this one from motorsports.com:
https://imgur.com/lEj14HJ.png

lol, those 2 know even less about the rules than some of the members here!
197 104 103 7

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Joined: 09 Nov 2009, 19:33

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:30
rifrafs2kees wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:20
ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 20:48

Of course he did know #-o ... if he actually didn't know he would have overtaken Verstappen. Verstappen could've a sudden failure... you won't hang around to find out would you??
He deliberately held back not to pass the DRS line and played dumbfounded, works much better to fool people.
Let's say Hamilton knew. If Verstappen, the one judged to have passed off track, wants to give the place up strategically, then Hamilton has the right to choose where to do the pass. You see how this goes?
Yes, it's a very gray area but not illegal or f*cked up like most fans are screaming. They are both racing to WIN and Hamilton plays verbal part better than Verstappen.
In my opinion Hamilton deserved a penalty because he obviously knew what Verstappen was up to. But the FIA doesn't work that way, that's what bothers me more than the penalty itself.

Do you penalize the one braking to force the one that needs to overtake or do you penalize the one that drives into the back of the one you refuse to overtake?
Simple! You penalize the guy who suddenly brakes where he need not brake. Same rule on the race track as public streets. This is so simple.

ArcticWolfie
ArcticWolfie
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Joined: 23 Jun 2017, 18:37

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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rifrafs2kees wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:59
ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:30
rifrafs2kees wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:20


Let's say Hamilton knew. If Verstappen, the one judged to have passed off track, wants to give the place up strategically, then Hamilton has the right to choose where to do the pass. You see how this goes?
Yes, it's a very gray area but not illegal or f*cked up like most fans are screaming. They are both racing to WIN and Hamilton plays verbal part better than Verstappen.
In my opinion Hamilton deserved a penalty because he obviously knew what Verstappen was up to. But the FIA doesn't work that way, that's what bothers me more than the penalty itself.

Do you penalize the one braking to force the one that needs to overtake or do you penalize the one that drives into the back of the one you refuse to overtake?
Simple! You penalize the guy who suddenly brakes where he need not brake. Same rule on the race track as public streets. This is so simple.
Seems it differs between countries/continents? The one colliding in the rear is always at fault here in Europe. The penalty can only get lower due to evidence, but nothing more.
Verstappen didn't suddenly brake, he lifted first and braked later... there's a f*cking difference.

jurinius
jurinius
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Joined: 14 Mar 2014, 04:17

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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Really funny to read read that Lewis yesterday driving was dirty (maybe the better adjective which help to balance with Max poor show) :idea:

The Mercedes of Lewis Hamilton was incredibly strong yesterday in the race => They were on the right setup mastering sector 2 & 3 while Redbull was good in Sector 1. Perez qualification was the clear indication that it gonna be difficult for Verstappen.

In qualif it was clear that Max was pushing too much and at the end he didn't trust his car afterall => His poor racing skills emerged again, going left and right and playing with limits at any costs.

Lets see what we got in Abu Dhabi...
“And suddenly I realized that I was no longer driving the car consciously. I was driving it by a kind of instinct, only I was in a different dimension.”
― Ayrton Senna

zeph
zeph
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Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 11:54
Location: Los Angeles

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 23:04

Seems it differs between countries/continents? The one colliding in the rear is always at fault here in Europe. The penalty can only get lower due to evidence, but nothing more.
Verstappen didn't suddenly brake, he lifted first and braked later... there's a f*cking difference.
Yours is a fallacious argument.

Yes, tailgating is not allowed, not in the US, not in Europe, not any place where traffic rules are enforced and obeyed.
Similarly, brake checking is not allowed any place where traffic rules are enforced and obeyed. Give it a try on a public road with a patrol car near and see how that goes.

On a race track, there are no rules about tailgating, it's a part of overtaking. Brake checking is not allowed, ever.

End of story.

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Joined: 09 Nov 2009, 19:33

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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proteus wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:53
dans79 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:34
ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:30
Do you penalize the one braking to force the one that needs to overtake or do you penalize the one that drives into the back of the one you refuse to overtake?
On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.
It was not as blatant. Why would a 7time world champion who is in F1 for 14 years decide that it is a good idea to close almost to a point blank behind a slowing car not even knowing why was he slowing down. Imagine Max having a bursting engine and Lewis cruising behind to get boiling hot oil thrown into his face...for a very spatial type of driver, he did quite a mistake in that moment.
Why didn't he move off the racing line? Find me another example where the driver that must give way dawdles in the middle of the track?

He gave mixed signals at best, at worst he had malicious intentions.

What's shocking is that for a segment of the fans it's all fair game because he can't win on just terms. Woefully illogical!

radosav
radosav
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Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 20:46

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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Mogster wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 19:29
radosav wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 18:57
Phil wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 18:43
The problem with the collision and leading up to it, were the movements of Verstappen. He decelerated and while he was on the far right going into the fast left hander (T25/T26), as Lewis was closing, Verstappen started to move to the inside of the track. This isn't showing intention of wanting to let someone by - it's erratic movement. Adding to that, on a part of the track that is high speed, narrow and a left-hander (not a straight):

Verstappen is decelerating, on the far right:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/01.gif

As Hamilton is closing the gap, Verstappen moves to the inside. With any big speed differential, it's a big accident waiting to happen if you keep going for the gap that is disappearing (Baku / Riccardo-Verstappen?):
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/02.gif

At this point, Hamilton has lost all his momentum after decelerating hard and is now behind Verstappen:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/03.gif

As Verstappen decelerates further, Hamilton is directly behind him. There is very little room on the right, there's a small gap on the left:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/04.gif

As Hamilton moves to the left, the only space that offers sufficient space and a gap with margin still directly behind Verstappen, Verstappen also moves to the inside and hits the brakes and they collide:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/05.gif

If Verstappens intentions were genuine and sincere to give up the position, he would have done so;

1.) staying on the far right, no erratic movements to the inside
2.) at a better location than in a corner
3.) would NOT have hit the brakes while occupying the middle of the track while having your opponent in close approximation behind you
4.) then, once the contact occurs, to go full throttle and disappear in the distance

This to me shows very clear and beyond doubt intent of willingly causing a collision. A collision with potential damage to your opponent (front wings are among the most fragile parts on a F1 car).

Not only that, there was also precedent for the intent to willingly engage in driving that put Hamilton and himself at risk for damage/DNF - i.e. the 2nd standing start where he rejoined the track at an impossible angle and in a blocking maneuver instead of following the track and rejoining at the far end and a trajectory beneficial to everyone:
https://temp.conceptics.com/f1_jeddah/06.gif

Or Lap 37 when Hamilton passed him on the straight with DRS and he went in hot on the inside and straight off track. If Hamilton there had not avoided and backed out, they would have collided.

It's a real shame, because Verstappen is undoubtedly one of the very best F1 drivers out there, yet he is resorting to driving that is not necessary, reeks of desperation and very dirty. And to make matters worse - the insufficient penalty for what is considered to be one of the most serious offenses a driver can commit, is not sending a clear signal that such driving should not be allowed, is very dangerous and could end in a very very serious accident.
footage from helicopter shows that hamilton had more than enough space on left si your statements are without proof🤷
Maybe Lewis should fly the helicopter next time then, be easier to avoid Max then. The screen caps show very little room on the right and a closing gap on the left as Max is moving left. The question is, as the OP says, if Verstappen genuinely wanted to give the place back then why choose a narrow corner, why brake and then why move left when Hamilton attempts to take the place :?

The usual way of conceding would be to move right on the main straight before the braking zone. Then the perusing car can overtake unimpeded and the chasing car then return to the normal racing line.
have you watched footage from above? i think you didn't

Starkblood80
Starkblood80
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Joined: 04 Jul 2020, 19:42

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:52
El Scorchio wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:38
ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:24

I always tailgate slow cars in the left lane... yes I'm an asshole, but I know my car's braking capabilities are much higher than the one in front of me. If you don't KNOW your car's braking capability (or your own...) don't tailgate, just don't #-o
In the context of a motor race, what you just said makes literally no sense. If tailgating is a no no in formula 1 racing then every driver in every race is braking the rules.
It does... you only tailgate because you know what you and your front driver are doing. If you don't (don't know your capabilities) you don't. And yes mistakes tend to happen, but there was no reason for Hamilton to tailgate Verstappen unless he knew what Verstappen was doing (he didn't want to go over the DRS line). That's why Hamilton deserved the penalty more than Verstappen in my opinion.

And I'm going to quote this one from motorsports.com:
https://imgur.com/lEj14HJ.png
I think the funniest thing about your post is the factually incorrect quote.

radosav
radosav
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Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 20:46

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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Just_a_fan wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 19:46
radosav wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 18:57
Phil wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 18:43
[...]
footage from helicopter shows that hamilton had more than enough space on left si your statements are without proof🤷
But Hamilton wasn't in the helicopter, was he? He was seeing it from roughly the angle we are seeing it in the onboard shots. And he was also having to work out what Verstappen was doing and why. So your argument is fallacious.
don't make me laugh, drivers than come in first corner with 250km/h and such a huge traffic and manage to pass it untouched now have problems on straight with one car letting them pass 😅🥳

radosav
radosav
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Joined: 05 Feb 2012, 20:46

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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rifrafs2kees wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 23:12
proteus wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:53
dans79 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:34


On and off the race track the person who jabs the brakes is always the one that is held liable.
It was not as blatant. Why would a 7time world champion who is in F1 for 14 years decide that it is a good idea to close almost to a point blank behind a slowing car not even knowing why was he slowing down. Imagine Max having a bursting engine and Lewis cruising behind to get boiling hot oil thrown into his face...for a very spatial type of driver, he did quite a mistake in that moment.
Why didn't he move off the racing line? Find me another example where the driver that must give way dawdles in the middle of the track?

He gave mixed signals at best, at worst he had malicious intentions.

What's shocking is that for a segment of the fans it's all fair game because he can't win on just terms. Woefully illogical!
it wasn't midle of the track, it was on right side, Ham had lot of place on left side, get your facts

zeph
zeph
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Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 11:54
Location: Los Angeles

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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Edd Straw says it well:
It’s clear that race control and the stewards have lost control of what happens on track in F1. The recent inconsistencies and the justifications used have come home to roost, creating a situation where drivers know they can push the limits, and indeed are obliged to given what is at stake.

Regardless of where you stand on how interventionalist the stewards, and indeed race control, should be, what’s happened recently has become too erratic and unpredictable. Such uncertainty has played a part in the incidents and arguments that shaped this race. The drivers have complained about it and this madcap race shows the consequences that follow on from that.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/our-verd ... -saudi-gp/

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El Scorchio
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Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:52
El Scorchio wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:38
ArcticWolfie wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 22:24

I always tailgate slow cars in the left lane... yes I'm an asshole, but I know my car's braking capabilities are much higher than the one in front of me. If you don't KNOW your car's braking capability (or your own...) don't tailgate, just don't #-o
In the context of a motor race, what you just said makes literally no sense. If tailgating is a no no in formula 1 racing then every driver in every race is braking the rules.
It does... you only tailgate because you know what you and your front driver are doing. If you don't (don't know your capabilities) you don't. And yes mistakes tend to happen, but there was no reason for Hamilton to tailgate Verstappen unless he knew what Verstappen was doing (he didn't want to go over the DRS line). That's why Hamilton deserved the penalty more than Verstappen in my opinion.

And I'm going to quote this one from motorsports.com:
https://imgur.com/lEj14HJ.png
That’s all total gibberish. Words fail me…

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Joined: 09 Nov 2009, 19:33

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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radosav wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 23:21
rifrafs2kees wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 23:12
proteus wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 21:53

it wasn't midle of the track, it was on right side, Ham had lot of place on left side, get your facts
Dishonest!
See quote and source below. And there are 10s like this. I'm yet to find one reputable opinion piece endorse Max's actions in that race.

He stayed in the middle of the narrow track, leaving unclear windows to the left and right and not visibly signaling that he was slowing intentionally. Hamilton, reportedly unaware of the decision by Verstappen to slow and let him by at this point, tried to lie back out of the way in confusion, only to finally attempt a move when Verstappen slowed even further and find himself tapping the Red Bull's left-rear wheel.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a3843 ... king-move/

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Mattchu
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Joined: 07 Jul 2014, 19:37

Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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If you split the track into 3 equal segments on this picture, which section is Verstappen predominately in?

Image

Credit Phil for the photos...

And here which was maybe a second before? Why move accross to the left?

Image

Words fail me with what I saw yesterday in several incidents, I don`t care for either of them really, Charlie would be spinning in his grave, god rest his soul!