FIA Thread

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AeroDynamic
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Re: FIA Thread

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I don’t agree. Everything worked fine before Massi. Just certain drivers kept whinging that the rules were ‘killing racing!’ And arguably, the case of Sebastian Vettel in Canada was arguable that the rules were stifling F1 sometimes. This drive from Vettel and Ferrari was hijacked by other drivers for their own agenda; wanting to race their own brand of racing, and called for ‘let them race’ - Michael Massi changed the way we apply rules to the racing. Black flags (haha, yeah that was forgotten about quickly) eventually this became ‘let them crash’ and meant any manoeuvre that didn’t result in a crash (even if it hinges on another driver having to have their hands tied or avoid you) was fine by Massi from now on. Yet for some strange reason, they did not consistently go with this approach in Austria with Norris / Leclerc / Perez. Curious.

Anyway the point I’m making is, it is disappointing to see some might blame the FIA for how things have changed. But everything changed under him, for the worse. The teams know best, certainly better than any couch critics. And it’s almost unanimous behind the scenes that drivers and senior team personnel have lost confidence in Massi, not the FIA.

Massi hasn’t made F1 his, he has relinquished too much of what F1 is allowed to be to the drivers. They’ve been the ones running the direction of F1. That’s why he keeps changing his mind, his approach, from Brazil to Jeddah. Only because every driver but Max raised issue with Brazil T4. He had to change his approach again.

Massi is not competent at being a leader, or being in control. He caves in and pleases people -which is a trap- he played himself trying to do that because he ended up breaking his own rule book that’s supposed to lead his decisions not Team Principals and drivers. His solution to not ending a race under safety car, as expressed as preferable by the teams, was a catastrophic failure. I don’t think the teams anticipated he would solve that by breaking the regulations and making it impossible for teams to know what to do when it’s the end of a race nearly, and are sitting ducks in the lead. Massi has no spine to write rules in the book so teams know what to expect and what to base their strategies on.
’cause
When we rhyme–we shine,
showing no weak signs
Each time you peep,
rewind these deep lines
I know I’m,
in a zone of my own kind
so I just get down,
and I go for mines.

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SiLo
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Re: FIA Thread

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DChemTech wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:39 am
SiLo wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:25 am
Ryar wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:10 am
I definitely don't read that, Masi was trying to make a statement or any such antics. Most of what I read in this sounds emotions than ratonality. Firing people is not the answer for any organization, especially for a decision taken under duress. Regaining credibility is done by identifying gaps in the process and fixing it. With the current situation of enormous inconsistency of decision making by RD and Stewards, expecting a miraculous escape out of it with a 100% perfect decision making is impossible. There has to be a method to improve things. Like I said, if Masi is replaced with someone else and if that person makes a similar decision under another pressure cooker situation, should he also be fired? It would be senseless.
Masi needs firing because he was terrible all year, across many situations, not because he cocked up once at the end of the season. There is a reason the "we miss Charlie" rhetoric was strong all year.

It makes a nice clean break, they resolve some of the issues in the rules around racing and penalties, and we get someone that starts fresh with those roles and applies them accordingly.
That last part is particularly important. Changing the faces is needed for a fresh start, but there's no point in changing the faces if the underlying rules are poor. The problem is the FIA at large, not Masi.
No changes in technical regulations throughout a season - the regulations should be clear and enforceable from the start (so no qualitative statements on wing flexing - quantitative from the start, rules should be SMART), and if a team manages to find a loophole, props to them. Close it for the next season. No secret deals. If a team cheats, penalise them and be open about what and why. No screwing around with changing track limits between sessions or only enforcing them in selected corners - the white lines are there for a reason, and if you can race on a piece of asphalt, you can also overtake there. And lasting advantages can be gained in other ways than overtaking. And of course, have a few extra pre-defined scenarios for the safety car deployment...
Completely agree. Although I believe safety changes will always be pushed through as soon as possible.

Track limits should be the white lines at every single corner, no excuses. No more "deals" with teams if they are cheating, I don't want to see another Ferrari style deal. And no more pushing people off the track ANYWHERE, corner entry, exit, mid, I don't care, I just don't want to see people being pushed off track.

If you are pushed off track, the place should be given back immediately, otherwise it's a 5s time penalty. Twice in a race? 10s. Three times? 15s.
Felipe Baby!

Henri
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Re: FIA Thread

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Fia need to make sure the abu Dhabi race events never happen again

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El Scorchio
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Re: FIA Thread

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SiLo wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:33 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:39 am
SiLo wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:25 am


Masi needs firing because he was terrible all year, across many situations, not because he cocked up once at the end of the season. There is a reason the "we miss Charlie" rhetoric was strong all year.

It makes a nice clean break, they resolve some of the issues in the rules around racing and penalties, and we get someone that starts fresh with those roles and applies them accordingly.
That last part is particularly important. Changing the faces is needed for a fresh start, but there's no point in changing the faces if the underlying rules are poor. The problem is the FIA at large, not Masi.
No changes in technical regulations throughout a season - the regulations should be clear and enforceable from the start (so no qualitative statements on wing flexing - quantitative from the start, rules should be SMART), and if a team manages to find a loophole, props to them. Close it for the next season. No secret deals. If a team cheats, penalise them and be open about what and why. No screwing around with changing track limits between sessions or only enforcing them in selected corners - the white lines are there for a reason, and if you can race on a piece of asphalt, you can also overtake there. And lasting advantages can be gained in other ways than overtaking. And of course, have a few extra pre-defined scenarios for the safety car deployment...
Completely agree. Although I believe safety changes will always be pushed through as soon as possible.

Track limits should be the white lines at every single corner, no excuses. No more "deals" with teams if they are cheating, I don't want to see another Ferrari style deal. And no more pushing people off the track ANYWHERE, corner entry, exit, mid, I don't care, I just don't want to see people being pushed off track.

If you are pushed off track, the place should be given back immediately, otherwise it's a 5s time penalty. Twice in a race? 10s. Three times? 15s.
I'd go stronger on the penalties. Three times is a DQ for me. If a driver does it three times in a race then it's clearly an intentional tactic. I'd also keep a cumulative count across the season and consider harsher penalties for repeat offenders. Would also like to see stronger penalties for not trying to avoid a collision, as well.

5 seconds is often such a non-deterrent- especially in cases like Hamilton and Verstappen. The transgressor knows the worst that will happen is they only lose the one place they were going to lose anyway IF it's even adjudged to be an illegal move seen as they are usually somewhat further than 5 seconds ahead and if it's not judged illegal, they retain the position. Therefore it's completely worth pulling the shenanigans.

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nzjrs
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Re: FIA Thread

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FWIW I think the sum total of enforcement and 'catastrophic [FIA] failure' throughout the season wasn't markedly different than the seasons before. It just managed to co-localise with a tight title fight, 2 years of mind-liquefying through the world, and the stupid FOM broadcasting how the sausage was made (and encouraging more of said sausage making insights).

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El Scorchio
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Re: FIA Thread

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nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:03 pm
FWIW I think the sum total of enforcement and 'catastrophic [FIA] failure' throughout the season wasn't markedly different than the seasons before. It just managed to co-localise with a tight title fight, 2 years of mind-liquefying through the world, and the stupid FOM broadcasting how the sausage was made (and encouraging more of said sausage making insights).
Yup- the warning signs were there for sure and it had been bubbling away with things like Vettel in Canada, Leclerc in Monza and some other incidents. It just all came to a head with the incredibly poor/flawed decision making and race management in three of the last four races eventually culminating in directly affecting the outcome of the WDC.

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AeroDynamic
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Yep, but hasn’t it become a theme under Massi? Charlie managed this for decades and things weren’t getting worse. Only under Massi have they got worse, and quickly over his 3 year tenure.

Putting someone else in his position with better qualities (I.e. a spine) would be a start. After that, they must clean up the rule books and start writing rules that leave little room for ambiguity. They’ve been exploited, particularly under Massi’s poor grip of the rule book. What good is keeping Massi if you improve the rules, but he freestyles them at the behest of the teams and drivers? :lol:
’cause
When we rhyme–we shine,
showing no weak signs
Each time you peep,
rewind these deep lines
I know I’m,
in a zone of my own kind
so I just get down,
and I go for mines.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: FIA Thread

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its a long video so I'm avoiding a summary. But it is an insightful conversation with all F1 Sky Sports staff giving their views, opinions, insights of on going conversations in the paddock circle.

Also, in short, the only reference to Technical issues Mercedes have raised with the FIA, goes back to Brazil, reportedly.. Just as I thought.
’cause
When we rhyme–we shine,
showing no weak signs
Each time you peep,
rewind these deep lines
I know I’m,
in a zone of my own kind
so I just get down,
and I go for mines.

KeiKo403
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Re: FIA Thread

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:14 pm


its a long video so I'm avoiding a summary. But it is an insightful conversation with all F1 Sky Sports staff giving their views, opinions, insights of on going conversations in the paddock circle.

Also, in short, the only reference to Technical issues Mercedes have raised with the FIA, goes back to Brazil, reportedly.. Just as I thought.
I used to quite enjoy Brundle’s views on things, in commentary too I feel he would always call a foul directly. Now he seems to be an FIA apologist toeing some party line as to not offend people as opposed to calling the race he’s watching. Johnny Herbert seems to tell it much more as it is, he’s honest and quite rightly isn’t afraid to upset people.

The technical issues in Brazil still baffle me, I don’t know why the FIA took the wing away, dismantled it completely (apparently) and Mercedes weren’t allowed to be present or even have the wing back within a timely manner, even though the DSQ penalty had already been decided on for Hamilton.

I get the feeling there’s more to the Tombazis stuff. Maybe Mercedes have asked for clarification on a fundamental 2022 component and been told it’s ‘ok’ only to then be told way down the development path that it’s a ‘no’?

I used to have faith in Masi, he tried to re-introduce track limits which quite frankly Whiting let get out of hand. Masi wasn’t forceful enough though, it was like he was trying to be popular with drivers and teams letting them take a mile when he was willing to give an inch.
I always try to see the good in people and try to see things from the perspective of others but in the case of Abu Dhabi I can’t understand that plain wrong decision. That was so much more than a mistake. Mistakes I can get over, but his decision was just outrageous. His final words to Toto really annoyed me, and also showed we have very different interpretations of “motor racing”.

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Zynerji
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Just thinking logically, if the race director had a strategy plan like the teams do surrounding safety car/vsc/etc, this would appear to be super simple.

They could have easily had a pre-set if X, then Y setup. And I'd be a bit gobsmacked if they didn't.

But it's not hard to say:

If (car stopped) and (laps<5 and > 1) then red flag.

Jolle
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Re: FIA Thread

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Was the idea to change the green flag for a safety car to the starting line also from Masi? (thinking of that pileup last year)

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west52keep64
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Jolle wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:34 am
Was the idea to change the green flag for a safety car to the starting line also from Masi? (thinking of that pileup last year)
Kind of, but not quite as your describe it. The issue there was the timing of when the SC lights turned off.

Normally the SC turns it's lights off in the final sector, several corners before the end of the lap, allowing the lead car to drop back. When the lead car has a sufficient gap to the SC, they return to racing speed ensuring they do not pass the SC before it pits. That normally means the lead cars are at racing speed going through the final couple of corners.

However, what Masi did a couple of times was instruct the SC to keep it's lights on until just before the final corner. This meant the lead car wasn't able to drop back. If the lead car had tried to restart out of the final corner, they probably would have been overtaken at the start/finish line as a result of the car behind being right behind them out of the final corner and getting a tow down the first half of the straight. SO, the drivers obviously didn't do that, and just crawled down the straight and then jumped on the throttle just before the start/finish line.

The result of this was most of the field crawling down the straight trying to time the restart, with some cars at the back thinking the race had restarted only to come round the final corner at racing speed to find everyone suddenly going slowly down the start/finish straight.

There was no justification for leaving it so late to turn the SC lights of other than to "improve the show".

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AeroDynamic
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What I picked up from massi’s side, is the fire breaking out on the Williams car was an unexpected event that prolonged what they anticipated to be a shorter safety car period. The Marshalls were uncomfortable working on the car even while the F1 drivers were under safety car speeds. So, the reason why cars weren’t allowed to unlap themselves earlier is because of the location of the Williams car (narrow track area) and safety of the Marshalls were most important and considered, so no overtaking while the Marshalls were on track. Atleast that’s what I got from that. That’s what left drivers like Alonso and Vettel confused.

It sounds to me like Massi was under pressure to please a number or complaining drivers on the radio (possibly teams as well?) with Christian Horner likely being the most pushy about it, demanding 1 racing lap.

Massi caves in. Deviates from the clear rules to get the last racing lap in.

The reality is, there simply wasn’t enough laps left for anymore racing. There was no ‘mistake’ by Massi not allowing the cars to unlap themselves earlier. If the car had crashed where Raikkonens retired etc, it might have been a different story. But the Williams crashed in that narrow hotel area of sector 3, and for the sake of safety for Marshalls, Cars were instructed not to overtake while they were literally on the race track with Latifi’s car.

The criticisms towards Massi’s reluctance to call cars to unlap themselves earlier is unwarranted.

The biggest mistake he made was not putting his foot down with he teams and communicating the priority of safety for why the cars were not able to unlap themselves. Instead he caved in and tried to please most people.

He then deviates from the regulations that state the safety car must come in on the following lap after ending. That any lapped cars (meaning all) must unlap themselves.

If he had followed the rules the race would’ve ended under safety car for sure.
’cause
When we rhyme–we shine,
showing no weak signs
Each time you peep,
rewind these deep lines
I know I’m,
in a zone of my own kind
so I just get down,
and I go for mines.

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Stu
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Re: FIA Thread

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KeiKo403 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:55 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:14 pm


its a long video so I'm avoiding a summary. But it is an insightful conversation with all F1 Sky Sports staff giving their views, opinions, insights of on going conversations in the paddock circle.

Also, in short, the only reference to Technical issues Mercedes have raised with the FIA, goes back to Brazil, reportedly.. Just as I thought.
I used to quite enjoy Brundle’s views on things, in commentary too I feel he would always call a foul directly. Now he seems to be an FIA apologist toeing some party line as to not offend people as opposed to calling the race he’s watching. Johnny Herbert seems to tell it much more as it is, he’s honest and quite rightly isn’t afraid to upset people.

The technical issues in Brazil still baffle me, I don’t know why the FIA took the wing away, dismantled it completely (apparently) and Mercedes weren’t allowed to be present or even have the wing back within a timely manner, even though the DSQ penalty had already been decided on for Hamilton.

I get the feeling there’s more to the Tombazis stuff. Maybe Mercedes have asked for clarification on a fundamental 2022 component and been told it’s ‘ok’ only to then be told way down the development path that it’s a ‘no’?

I used to have faith in Masi, he tried to re-introduce track limits which quite frankly Whiting let get out of hand. Masi wasn’t forceful enough though, it was like he was trying to be popular with drivers and teams letting them take a mile when he was willing to give an inch.
I always try to see the good in people and try to see things from the perspective of others but in the case of Abu Dhabi I can’t understand that plain wrong decision. That was so much more than a mistake. Mistakes I can get over, but his decision was just outrageous. His final words to Toto really annoyed me, and also showed we have very different interpretations of “motor racing”.
Simply put, the FIA kept hold of the wing for further testing (this was at the centre of the flexi-element suspicion - and the part the MV touched/inspected in parc ferme after qualifying in Brazil). Flex as was being suggested would have been a part of the design of the element and would have amounted to a mechanism as defined in the regulations; Mercedes would have been handed their arses on a plate if the accusation had been proved correct.
The increase in load that was trialled at the end of the season was as a result of what was discovered, imo.
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...

woohoo
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Re: FIA Thread

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:11 am
I don’t agree. Everything worked fine before Massi. Just certain drivers kept whinging that the rules were ‘killing racing!’ And arguably, the case of Sebastian Vettel in Canada was arguable that the rules were stifling F1 sometimes. This drive from Vettel and Ferrari was hijacked by other drivers for their own agenda; wanting to race their own brand of racing, and called for ‘let them race’ - Michael Massi changed the way we apply rules to the racing. Black flags (haha, yeah that was forgotten about quickly) eventually this became ‘let them crash’ and meant any manoeuvre that didn’t result in a crash (even if it hinges on another driver having to have their hands tied or avoid you) was fine by Massi from now on. Yet for some strange reason, they did not consistently go with this approach in Austria with Norris / Leclerc / Perez. Curious.

Anyway the point I’m making is, it is disappointing to see some might blame the FIA for how things have changed. But everything changed under him, for the worse. The teams know best, certainly better than any couch critics. And it’s almost unanimous behind the scenes that drivers and senior team personnel have lost confidence in Massi, not the FIA.

Massi hasn’t made F1 his, he has relinquished too much of what F1 is allowed to be to the drivers. They’ve been the ones running the direction of F1. That’s why he keeps changing his mind, his approach, from Brazil to Jeddah. Only because every driver but Max raised issue with Brazil T4. He had to change his approach again.

Massi is not competent at being a leader, or being in control. He caves in and pleases people -which is a trap- he played himself trying to do that because he ended up breaking his own rule book that’s supposed to lead his decisions not Team Principals and drivers. His solution to not ending a race under safety car, as expressed as preferable by the teams, was a catastrophic failure. I don’t think the teams anticipated he would solve that by breaking the regulations and making it impossible for teams to know what to do when it’s the end of a race nearly, and are sitting ducks in the lead. Massi has no spine to write rules in the book so teams know what to expect and what to base their strategies on.
ON the whole, I agree, but one point; things did not work fine before Masi.
There were inconsistencies before, however Charlie Whiting was able to keep a lid on things, and to react to them with clarifications and changes.
Like adding a driver steward to the steward panels etc.

I think the entire system is broken, but where we before had an excellent judge doing the best he could, we now have a terrible judge that is falling into every crack the system has laid before him.
The only way to close a stupid question is to give a smart answer