2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Csmith1980]

In all honesty, they should penalize it harder. They should deduct half the points after the race, instead of grid penalties, for every new PU component beyond the allowed limit. If someone is using 5th or 6th shouldn't become a reason for lesser penalty. That would force teams to not abuse the rules. As I mentioned in the FIA thread that, if a situation like Hungary happens, then FIA should be pragmatic in allowing PU element(s) to be changed without penalty after full deliberation.

Forgive me but wasn’t the lenient regulations regarding over use of PU components bought in to appease Honda because of their high rate of failure? Seems somewhat ironic that Mercedes used those same regulations against Honda and Redbull

Not to appease Honda, but McLaren were getting ridiculous grid penalties (Honda were effectively pushed into starting a year earlier than they had intended - resulting in an enormous number of failures). They certainly weren’t gaming/subverting the rules/regulations.

But the rules were changed for them and gaming/subverting the rules/regulations is something of a Redbull forte so it’s all swings and roundabouts.

[Stu]

Forgive me but wasn’t the lenient regulations regarding over use of PU components bought in to appease Honda because of their high rate of failure? Seems somewhat ironic that Mercedes used those same regulations against Honda and Redbull

Not to appease Honda, but McLaren were getting ridiculous grid penalties (Honda were effectively pushed into starting a year earlier than they had intended - resulting in an enormous number of failures). They certainly weren’t gaming/subverting the rules/regulations.

But the rules were changed for them and gaming/subverting the rules/regulations is something of a Redbull forte so it’s all swings and roundabouts.

It doesn’t make it right.
There is a very fine line between exploiting/exploring loopholes and subverting the rules (that you have agreed to abide by) for a performance gain.

In a couple of years we will see a regulation change that will ban tyre blankets. We will see teams ‘inadvertently’ leaving tyre sets out in sun-traps to heat them. Which will be fine (until another team complains about garage locations & an unfair advantage being gained), until it becomes regulated against. At which point it will become an attempt to subvert the rules….CHEATING!!

[Csmith1980]

Not to appease Honda, but McLaren were getting ridiculous grid penalties (Honda were effectively pushed into starting a year earlier than they had intended - resulting in an enormous number of failures). They certainly weren’t gaming/subverting the rules/regulations.

But the rules were changed for them and gaming/subverting the rules/regulations is something of a Redbull forte so it’s all swings and roundabouts.

It doesn’t make it right.
There is a very fine line between exploiting/exploring loopholes and subverting the rules (that you have agreed to abide by) for a performance gain.

In a couple of years we will see a regulation change that will ban tyre blankets. We will see teams ‘inadvertently’ leaving tyre sets out in sun-traps to heat them. Which will be fine (until another team complains about garage locations & an unfair advantage being gained), until it becomes regulated against. At which point it will become an attempt to subvert the rules….CHEATING!!

I’m not sure you could call Redbulls past exploits “exploring loopholes” though. DAS was exploring a loophole, plasticine rear wings were specifically designed to subvert the rules/regulations that were in place. All off which makes it difficult to be critical of one teams antics while defending another’s without it looking like bias.

[Stu]

But the rules were changed for them and gaming/subverting the rules/regulations is something of a Redbull forte so it’s all swings and roundabouts.

It doesn’t make it right.
There is a very fine line between exploiting/exploring loopholes and subverting the rules (that you have agreed to abide by) for a performance gain.

In a couple of years we will see a regulation change that will ban tyre blankets. We will see teams ‘inadvertently’ leaving tyre sets out in sun-traps to heat them. Which will be fine (until another team complains about garage locations & an unfair advantage being gained), until it becomes regulated against. At which point it will become an attempt to subvert the rules….CHEATING!!

I’m not sure you could call Redbulls past exploits “exploring loopholes” though. DAS was exploring a loophole, plasticine rear wings were specifically designed to subvert the rules/regulations that were in place. All off which makes it difficult to be critical of one teams antics while defending another’s without it looking like bias.

I’m not defending any team.
Just pointing out that all teams sign up to the same technical and sporting regulations and that blatantly subverting those AGREED rules should result in a fair penalty (regardless of who is doing the subverting). It is a real shame that PU’s are not included within the budget cap.

Oh, plasticine wings (particularly at the front) are really being jumped on this year, there are load tests specified for all wing elements (front and rear).
The Red Bull flexing front wings got fairly rapidly jumped on (and correctly so); the rear wing flex that almost all teams were using in the early part of last season were passing load tests. As was the AMG rear when inspected after Brazil.
Sebastian Vettel’s flagrant flouting of track limits (back during his championship years) were not - while others received warnings; which is wrong.

[Csmith1980]

It doesn’t make it right.
There is a very fine line between exploiting/exploring loopholes and subverting the rules (that you have agreed to abide by) for a performance gain.

In a couple of years we will see a regulation change that will ban tyre blankets. We will see teams ‘inadvertently’ leaving tyre sets out in sun-traps to heat them. Which will be fine (until another team complains about garage locations & an unfair advantage being gained), until it becomes regulated against. At which point it will become an attempt to subvert the rules….CHEATING!!

I’m not sure you could call Redbulls past exploits “exploring loopholes” though. DAS was exploring a loophole, plasticine rear wings were specifically designed to subvert the rules/regulations that were in place. All off which makes it difficult to be critical of one teams antics while defending another’s without it looking like bias.

I’m not defending any team.
Just pointing out that all teams sign up to the same technical and sporting regulations and that blatantly subverting those AGREED rules should result in a fair penalty (regardless of who is doing the subverting). It is a real shame that PU’s are not included within the budget cap.

Oh, plasticine wings (particularly at the front) are really being jumped on this year, there are load tests specified for all wing elements (front and rear).
The Red Bull flexing front wings got fairly rapidly jumped on (and correctly so); the rear wing flex that almost all teams were using in the early part of last season were passing load tests. As was the AMG rear when inspected after Brazil.
Sebastian Vettel’s flagrant flouting of track limits (back during his championship years) were not - while others received warnings; which is wrong.

Are you getting front and rear wings mixed up because I don’t recall anyone jumping on RB’s front wing or “almost” all teams rear wings flexing(excessively)

[Csmith1980]

I’m not sure you could call Redbulls past exploits “exploring loopholes” though. DAS was exploring a loophole, plasticine rear wings were specifically designed to subvert the rules/regulations that were in place. All off which makes it difficult to be critical of one teams antics while defending another’s without it looking like bias.

I’m not defending any team.
Just pointing out that all teams sign up to the same technical and sporting regulations and that blatantly subverting those AGREED rules should result in a fair penalty (regardless of who is doing the subverting). It is a real shame that PU’s are not included within the budget cap.

Oh, plasticine wings (particularly at the front) are really being jumped on this year, there are load tests specified for all wing elements (front and rear).
The Red Bull flexing front wings got fairly rapidly jumped on (and correctly so); the rear wing flex that almost all teams were using in the early part of last season were passing load tests. As was the AMG rear when inspected after Brazil.
Sebastian Vettel’s flagrant flouting of track limits (back during his championship years) were not - while others received warnings; which is wrong.

Are you getting front and rear wings mixed up because I don’t recall anyone jumping on RB’s front wing or “almost” all teams rear wings flexing(excessively)

This was you defending RB’s rear wing last season
“It looks to me as though the front edge of the rear wing is staying in roughly the same place vertically, which suggests that the bending is being achieved with the lower beam element. The wing itself is rigid (hence it passes the current tests), the new tests will load the wing differently....
That isn’t cheating, that is designing to the rules!!

Let’s hope for Mercedes sake they don’t apply load tests to the shark fin or T-wing....”

If you think Mercedes should have received a fair penalty for subverting the rules then surely you agree Redbull should have also received one.

[Juzh]

It doesn’t make it right.
There is a very fine line between exploiting/exploring loopholes and subverting the rules (that you have agreed to abide by) for a performance gain.

In a couple of years we will see a regulation change that will ban tyre blankets. We will see teams ‘inadvertently’ leaving tyre sets out in sun-traps to heat them. Which will be fine (until another team complains about garage locations & an unfair advantage being gained), until it becomes regulated against. At which point it will become an attempt to subvert the rules….CHEATING!!

I’m not sure you could call Redbulls past exploits “exploring loopholes” though. DAS was exploring a loophole, plasticine rear wings were specifically designed to subvert the rules/regulations that were in place. All off which makes it difficult to be critical of one teams antics while defending another’s without it looking like bias.

I’m not defending any team.
Just pointing out that all teams sign up to the same technical and sporting regulations and that blatantly subverting those AGREED rules should result in a fair penalty (regardless of who is doing the subverting). It is a real shame that PU’s are not included within the budget cap.

Oh, plasticine wings (particularly at the front) are really being jumped on this year, there are load tests specified for all wing elements (front and rear).
The Red Bull flexing front wings got fairly rapidly jumped on (and correctly so); the rear wing flex that almost all teams were using in the early part of last season were passing load tests. As was the AMG rear when inspected after Brazil.
Sebastian Vettel’s flagrant flouting of track limits (back during his championship years) were not - while others received warnings; which is wrong.

Another pro-merc mod jumping around in this thread and bringing up 10 year old topics for the sake of hating on a team, aint that just great I'm sure you were just as vigilant back when mercedes were pumping oil into engine by the truckloads.

Why are you using all caps and going all sentimental on this? Quite obviously you've taken a stance against RB here by rehashing some prehistoric vettel's track limits "violations" from a decade ago. Those weren't even a thing back then in the way they are now, so why are you retroactively using modern rules and apply them to those from 10 years ago?

[Stu]

I’m not sure you could call Redbulls past exploits “exploring loopholes” though. DAS was exploring a loophole, plasticine rear wings were specifically designed to subvert the rules/regulations that were in place. All off which makes it difficult to be critical of one teams antics while defending another’s without it looking like bias.

I’m not defending any team.
Just pointing out that all teams sign up to the same technical and sporting regulations and that blatantly subverting those AGREED rules should result in a fair penalty (regardless of who is doing the subverting). It is a real shame that PU’s are not included within the budget cap.

Oh, plasticine wings (particularly at the front) are really being jumped on this year, there are load tests specified for all wing elements (front and rear).
The Red Bull flexing front wings got fairly rapidly jumped on (and correctly so); the rear wing flex that almost all teams were using in the early part of last season were passing load tests. As was the AMG rear when inspected after Brazil.
Sebastian Vettel’s flagrant flouting of track limits (back during his championship years) were not - while others received warnings; which is wrong.

Are you getting front and rear wings mixed up because I don’t recall anyone jumping on RB’s front wing or “almost” all teams rear wings flexing(excessively)

Try doing a Google-search on red bull flexing front wing….

[Sieper]

Will we see rear wing main plane opening, or flexing, again. Or is the new shape, with integrated, flowing wing endplates making that more difficult? And what about the tests for that?

[Csmith1980]

I’m not defending any team.
Just pointing out that all teams sign up to the same technical and sporting regulations and that blatantly subverting those AGREED rules should result in a fair penalty (regardless of who is doing the subverting). It is a real shame that PU’s are not included within the budget cap.

Oh, plasticine wings (particularly at the front) are really being jumped on this year, there are load tests specified for all wing elements (front and rear).
The Red Bull flexing front wings got fairly rapidly jumped on (and correctly so); the rear wing flex that almost all teams were using in the early part of last season were passing load tests. As was the AMG rear when inspected after Brazil.
Sebastian Vettel’s flagrant flouting of track limits (back during his championship years) were not - while others received warnings; which is wrong.

Are you getting front and rear wings mixed up because I don’t recall anyone jumping on RB’s front wing or “almost” all teams rear wings flexing(excessively)

Try doing a Google-search on red bull flexing front wing….

I don’t need Google but thanks for the advise. I recall pretty clearly that once Redbull were called out for their play dough rear wing, fans started pointing fingers at Mercedes’ front wing while conveniently ignoring the fact every FW on the grid was flexing because by design it was unavoidable.

[cooken]

Another pro-merc mod jumping around in this thread and bringing up 10 year old topics for the sake of hating on a team, aint that just great I'm sure you were just as vigilant back when mercedes were pumping oil into engine by the truckloads.

Why are you using all caps and going all sentimental on this? Quite obviously you've taken a stance against RB here by rehashing some prehistoric vettel's track limits "violations" from a decade ago. Those weren't even a thing back then in the way they are now, so why are you retroactively using modern rules and apply them to those from 10 years ago?

Pro-merc...immediately after he started all this by complaining about what merc did and labelling it cheating.


Back on topic...subverting the rules? Eh, par for the course isn't it? What else would you expect in F1; if the teams aren't pushing and in some cases trying to game the rules, well then they aren't trying hard enough. Problem with the PU penalties is at the moment there is no distinction between component changes due to: legitimate reliability / strategy / crashes. As long as that remains the case, it's not really fair to dole out heavy handed penalties either. As long as all teams have equal opportunity to bend the rules the same way then what's the problem? The likes of Merc and RB should not be further punished just because the other teams are slow enough that grid penalties are less meaningful.

[Stu]

Are you getting front and rear wings mixed up because I don’t recall anyone jumping on RB’s front wing or “almost” all teams rear wings flexing(excessively)

Try doing a Google-search on red bull flexing front wing….

I don’t need Google but thanks for the advise. I recall pretty clearly that once Redbull were called out for their play dough rear wing, fans started pointing fingers at Mercedes’ front wing while conveniently ignoring the fact every FW on the grid was flexing because by design it was unavoidable.

Meanwhile, some of us were pointing out both.
Red Bull got forced to re-do their front wing in 2013 (I think), when it could be seen to bow vertically under load (and seal the end-plate to the track). They complained, but the tests were changed and life went on. Other teams have had flexing floors, ‘bowed’ flat floors and other such trickery.
Way back in 1982 (again, I think), Brabham had a system that altered the ride height in the paddock (at the pull of a lever), so it passed inspection. The drivers then operated the lever once out of the pit-lane to drop the ride height. Technically illegal, but the rules could only be enforced where it was measured (the paddock). FISA ended up giving up the ride-height rule.

[Csmith1980]

Try doing a Google-search on red bull flexing front wing….

I don’t need Google but thanks for the advise. I recall pretty clearly that once Redbull were called out for their play dough rear wing, fans started pointing fingers at Mercedes’ front wing while conveniently ignoring the fact every FW on the grid was flexing because by design it was unavoidable.

Meanwhile, some of us were pointing out both.
Red Bull got forced to re-do their front wing in 2013 (I think), when it could be seen to bow vertically under load (and seal the end-plate to the track). They complained, but the tests were changed and life went on. Other teams have had flexing floors, ‘bowed’ flat floors and other such trickery.
Way back in 1982 (again, I think), Brabham had a system that altered the ride height in the paddock (at the pull of a lever), so it passed inspection. The drivers then operated the lever once out of the pit-lane to drop the ride height. Technically illegal, but the rules could only be enforced where it was measured (the paddock). FISA ended up giving up the ride-height rule.

At no point did you reference 2013, in fact your reply too me read very much as if you were referencing last season and last season only.

[Csmith1980]

Another pro-merc mod jumping around in this thread and bringing up 10 year old topics for the sake of hating on a team, aint that just great I'm sure you were just as vigilant back when mercedes were pumping oil into engine by the truckloads.

Why are you using all caps and going all sentimental on this? Quite obviously you've taken a stance against RB here by rehashing some prehistoric vettel's track limits "violations" from a decade ago. Those weren't even a thing back then in the way they are now, so why are you retroactively using modern rules and apply them to those from 10 years ago?

Pro-merc...immediately after he started all this by complaining about what merc did and labelling it cheating.


Back on topic...subverting the rules? Eh, par for the course isn't it? What else would you expect in F1; if the teams aren't pushing and in some cases trying to game the rules, well then they aren't trying hard enough. Problem with the PU penalties is at the moment there is no distinction between component changes due to: legitimate reliability / strategy / crashes. As long as that remains the case, it's not really fair to dole out heavy handed penalties either. As long as all teams have equal opportunity to bend the rules the same way then what's the problem? The likes of Merc and RB should not be further punished just because the other teams are slow enough that grid penalties are less meaningful.

Do customer teams have the same opportunity to bend the PU regulations in the same manner as a manufacturer though?

[lio007]

T-3
Let's talk about launch day, livery,... everything is better than the last couple of posts!