2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Rodak wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 2:54 am
Zynerji wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 8:28 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 8:20 pm
It is confrimed as just bumps in the road and poor suspension.
My sim experience is that it has always been like that. You can trigger lasting oscillations if your f/r settings harmonize.

Like an early Porche 924.
Sim experience is a game, not real life... Every actually drive an open wheel race car? You're in for a surprise.
What's your point? Monaco has always had washboard bumps in the braking zones. It also shows up in HQ Sims. I've had experience suffering from it as well, and solved it with settings, like the teams are doing.

I don't see how your snark here has any relevance.🤔

Sevach
Sevach
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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214270 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 12:04 pm
Engine related but probably a team topic:

https://www.ft.com/content/34ca7e31-11d ... d7130c4cb5

Mercedes considers culling F1 engine client
(Team that supplies McLaren, Williams and Aston Martin says leasing to rivals is no longer “compelling”)

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff said new spending rules have put one of its three Formula One customers at risk of being culled, because the German manufacturer is no longer earning “substantial amounts” from producing engines for its rivals

“Unfortunately, the business of leasing engines is not compelling and interesting because the [governing body] FIA has put in a certain limit that you can charge to your customers, in order to protect the smaller teams,” Wolff said, adding that the Mercedes team itself accounted for the bulk of its profits, which amounted to just under £14mn last year.

Mercedes supplies rivals McLaren, Aston Martin and Williams with engines designed by its high-performance unit in Brixworth, UK. All teams have been subject to increasingly restrictive cost caps over the past two seasons, as F1 owner Liberty Media seeks to narrow the financial gap between the most and least successful outfits.

After winning eight constructor’s championships in a row, Mercedes has struggled with its car this season, losing pace to frontrunners Red Bull and Ferrari. Its clients also faced difficulties in getting ahead of their closest rivals in the middle of the pack during some early races.

Wolff said the production of two engines apiece for three other teams was a burden for Mercedes, whose engineers have been preoccupied with developing upgrades to the cars for its drivers Lewis Hamilton and George Russell.

“I’d rather have six [client cars], push the development further down the line and then make two engines less, because you need to produce two less plus two spares for every team,” he said.

“In an ideal world, I would maybe see us plus two [customers], so actually downsize a bit,” he added, but did not elaborate on which client Mercedes was likely to drop. The relationship between Mercedes and McLaren is the oldest of the three, dating back decades, albeit with a six-year gap.

Wolff’s comments come as Mercedes’ German rivals Porsche and Audi — both VW subsidiaries — are poised to enter F1, in time for rule changes in 2026 that would increase the amount of electric power generation in cars.

One of the VW-owned brands could team up with McLaren, depriving Mercedes of a leasing customer, according to people familiar with the plans.
Harsh, but if the math doesn't justify it... plus, Renault could use some clients too.
I doubt Aston Martin will be dropped, road car relationships and all that.

zibby43
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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silver wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 1:54 am
zibby43 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:39 pm
silver wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:32 pm
Mate, you have a long season of lols.
Because you keep posting.

I don’t know if it’s ignorance on your part, or deliberate trolling. Either way, I choose to laugh about it since the mods don’t care either way.

2 seconds of research would have led even the most casual F1 fan to see the bouncing was suspension stiffness/track-related. Not porpoising.

And not only was it not porpoising - they 100% understand the cause, as explained above.

So how did you formulate such a BS post originally?

lol.
Whatever makes you feel comfortable in a difficult year.
lol.

Not difficult for me. I don’t work for the team. :lol:

epo
epo
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Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:57 pm

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Spoutnik wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 11:15 am
If they ever wanted him and payed him the cash and had the faster car hey would have gone there for sure. Most drivers would so..



Mod edit:
Tone it down a bit and play nicely, please.
Last edited by Stu on Sun May 29, 2022 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Biliousness removed

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Every year they ask Lewis that question. Don't even have to mention that he has been approached by Ferrari at least twice already in his career.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

Andi76
Andi76
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Re: Mercedes W13

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cplchanb wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 1:25 am
Andi76 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 10:45 pm
Quantum wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 2:59 pm


It was front suspension related, from both drivers. So not the same problem of porpoising.
The heave spring was changed on George's car during FP1, so might be a case of running too stiff.
Timo Glock noticed its porpoising again, even if i do not think this was the case as Monaco is too slow for any of the cars to actually have a problem with porpoising. But i do think that Monaco will show what i said after Barcelona, which was that Mercedes has not really made progress compared to Ferrari and Red Bull, was right. They are still 0,6-1 second slower and still Topspeed is lower. If they really solved porpoising will only be seen in the next race, as in Barcelona no car had serious issues(probably because they all knew a how to solve that problem on a well known track like Barcelona)and Monaco is just too slow.
You're just affirming what was already predicted by Wolff before the weekend
They already said that the car is not suited to this track. Not mention Monaco has been mercs weakspot almost every year so I don't see this as a strong testament of their overall progress. Merc was behind in 16-18 and 21
In 2016 they they were 0.1-0.3 secs off pole... and won the race...and never so far behind...anyway my opinion is that Barcelona was misleading and they did not improve. We will see in the next 1-2 races if i am wrong or right.
Last edited by Andi76 on Sat May 28, 2022 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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mvfad wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 4:28 pm
I think Hamilton has more difficulty in reaching the ideal tire temperature than Russell (for hotlap). And the Russell always feels more comfortable under braking, too.

"Lucky" for Mercedes is that they have two very talented drivers. Because this car is terrible to drive.
Lewis started his first attempt in the wrong engine mode and had to abort. After that the tyres were not in it anymore.

He really gets it wrong in absolutely the wrong moments this year, either on his own like today or by circumstance. Tomorrow will be a complete lottery though, so he might get some luck his way finally..

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wogx
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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ringo
198
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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I think Hamilton still has the pace. Just doesnt have the motivation to take advantage of evrry opportunity like George is. I think last year has really dulled his motivation.
But today he did prove the quicker one, but was wadted too much time in Q3 and i think Q2.
But the final run was just rotten luck. Both lewis and george didnt do such an okay first run.
But i think the car is improved. The team said they will be looking for performance now. Monaco is just showing up their lack of developement and tuning for the suspension. The more running they get with the car without the porpoising the more they will set it right.
regarding engines they can drop mclaren or williams. Commerically its better to stick with Aston. Williams can go back to Renault power.
For Sure!!

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Cocles
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Sevach wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 6:08 pm
214270 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 12:04 pm
Engine related but probably a team topic:

https://www.ft.com/content/34ca7e31-11d ... d7130c4cb5

Mercedes considers culling F1 engine client
(Team that supplies McLaren, Williams and Aston Martin says leasing to rivals is no longer “compelling”)

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff said new spending rules have put one of its three Formula One customers at risk of being culled, because the German manufacturer is no longer earning “substantial amounts” from producing engines for its rivals

“Unfortunately, the business of leasing engines is not compelling and interesting because the [governing body] FIA has put in a certain limit that you can charge to your customers, in order to protect the smaller teams,” Wolff said, adding that the Mercedes team itself accounted for the bulk of its profits, which amounted to just under £14mn last year.

Mercedes supplies rivals McLaren, Aston Martin and Williams with engines designed by its high-performance unit in Brixworth, UK. All teams have been subject to increasingly restrictive cost caps over the past two seasons, as F1 owner Liberty Media seeks to narrow the financial gap between the most and least successful outfits.

After winning eight constructor’s championships in a row, Mercedes has struggled with its car this season, losing pace to frontrunners Red Bull and Ferrari. Its clients also faced difficulties in getting ahead of their closest rivals in the middle of the pack during some early races.

Wolff said the production of two engines apiece for three other teams was a burden for Mercedes, whose engineers have been preoccupied with developing upgrades to the cars for its drivers Lewis Hamilton and George Russell.

“I’d rather have six [client cars], push the development further down the line and then make two engines less, because you need to produce two less plus two spares for every team,” he said.

“In an ideal world, I would maybe see us plus two [customers], so actually downsize a bit,” he added, but did not elaborate on which client Mercedes was likely to drop. The relationship between Mercedes and McLaren is the oldest of the three, dating back decades, albeit with a six-year gap.

Wolff’s comments come as Mercedes’ German rivals Porsche and Audi — both VW subsidiaries — are poised to enter F1, in time for rule changes in 2026 that would increase the amount of electric power generation in cars.

One of the VW-owned brands could team up with McLaren, depriving Mercedes of a leasing customer, according to people familiar with the plans.
Harsh, but if the math doesn't justify it... plus, Renault could use some clients too.
I doubt Aston Martin will be dropped, road car relationships and all that.
Didn't Aston Martin just fire the head of AMG they had poached? I also read somewhere that Stroll is looking to begin working with Italy (Ferrari) on the road cars instead of Germany.

Sevach
Sevach
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:00 pm

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Cocles wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 4:23 am
Sevach wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 6:08 pm
214270 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 12:04 pm
Engine related but probably a team topic:

https://www.ft.com/content/34ca7e31-11d ... d7130c4cb5

Mercedes considers culling F1 engine client
(Team that supplies McLaren, Williams and Aston Martin says leasing to rivals is no longer “compelling”)

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff said new spending rules have put one of its three Formula One customers at risk of being culled, because the German manufacturer is no longer earning “substantial amounts” from producing engines for its rivals

“Unfortunately, the business of leasing engines is not compelling and interesting because the [governing body] FIA has put in a certain limit that you can charge to your customers, in order to protect the smaller teams,” Wolff said, adding that the Mercedes team itself accounted for the bulk of its profits, which amounted to just under £14mn last year.

Mercedes supplies rivals McLaren, Aston Martin and Williams with engines designed by its high-performance unit in Brixworth, UK. All teams have been subject to increasingly restrictive cost caps over the past two seasons, as F1 owner Liberty Media seeks to narrow the financial gap between the most and least successful outfits.

After winning eight constructor’s championships in a row, Mercedes has struggled with its car this season, losing pace to frontrunners Red Bull and Ferrari. Its clients also faced difficulties in getting ahead of their closest rivals in the middle of the pack during some early races.

Wolff said the production of two engines apiece for three other teams was a burden for Mercedes, whose engineers have been preoccupied with developing upgrades to the cars for its drivers Lewis Hamilton and George Russell.

“I’d rather have six [client cars], push the development further down the line and then make two engines less, because you need to produce two less plus two spares for every team,” he said.

“In an ideal world, I would maybe see us plus two [customers], so actually downsize a bit,” he added, but did not elaborate on which client Mercedes was likely to drop. The relationship between Mercedes and McLaren is the oldest of the three, dating back decades, albeit with a six-year gap.

Wolff’s comments come as Mercedes’ German rivals Porsche and Audi — both VW subsidiaries — are poised to enter F1, in time for rule changes in 2026 that would increase the amount of electric power generation in cars.

One of the VW-owned brands could team up with McLaren, depriving Mercedes of a leasing customer, according to people familiar with the plans.
Harsh, but if the math doesn't justify it... plus, Renault could use some clients too.
I doubt Aston Martin will be dropped, road car relationships and all that.
Didn't Aston Martin just fire the head of AMG they had poached? I also read somewhere that Stroll is looking to begin working with Italy (Ferrari) on the road cars instead of Germany.
I wasn't aware of that... if that's correct then they might be the ones on the losing side.

Owen.C93
Owen.C93
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Re: Mercedes W13

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A big part will be lack of budget this season for a monaco spec wing. You can’t add monkey wings or extra downforce rear wings as easily as you used too.
Motorsport Graduate in search of team experience ;)

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atanatizante
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Re: Mercedes W13

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Andi76 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 6:33 am
VacuousFlamboyant wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 1:39 am
Andi76 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 10:45 pm


Timo Glock noticed its porpoising again, even if i do not think this was the case as Monaco is too slow for any of the cars to actually have a problem with porpoising. But i do think that Monaco will show what i said after Barcelona, which was that Mercedes has not really made progress compared to Ferrari and Red Bull, was right. They are still 0,6-1 second slower and still Topspeed is lower. If they really solved porpoising will only be seen in the next race, as in Barcelona no car had serious issues(probably because they all knew a how to solve that problem on a well known track like Barcelona)and Monaco is just too slow.
Different conditions. Barcelona was hot. In these conditions air is more sparse. Monaco is a coastal city-state and the temperature is low. Air is denser, thus almost everyone is suffering with porpoising. Daniel even crashed because of it. The track is also bumpier. That's a concern. Mercedes' suspension is much more linear and rebounds like a rodeo horse, instead of one from a dressage. Suspension itself, along with the bumps, is creating flow separation and severe hysteresis. Short term solution would be to run a soft setup.
For myself porpoising is an aerodynamic phenomenon caused by several things. It was explained many, many times, so i think there is no need to get further into this again. In Monaco its completely suspension related bouncing, so no porpoising in my book. Your explanation nailed it, thank you for that, but i would not call this porpoising. This was good old grounding, not porpoising. Anyway Monaco so far made it obvious, in my opinion at least, that Mercedes is still far away from Red Bull and Ferrari in terms of pace and the "Barcelona-sucess" was misinterpreted by a lot of people. There is no doubt that the Mercedes team itself is still one of the best in F1. Of course they do a better job and find better solutions on a well known track like Barcelona than Haas or Alpine. But at the end of the day they were still 0.6 to 1.0 seconds behind Red Bull and Ferrari. The performance so far in Monaco suggests that the step in Barcelona was indeed not as big as a lot of people thought and the car still has a lot of issues. Its performance aero-wise and also in terms of suspension is far from being able to give us a championship fight with three teams involved the gap between these teams has not really changed a lot if you look closely.
On another forum, someone said quoting a Merc engineer that the car is somewhere between 8 and 9 tenths in qualy pace and some 6-7 tenths in the race pace coz they were just concentrating on solving the porpoising issues. This time lost compared to the top teams is due to their delayed and thus lack of development to the suspension/damper/heave and all the stuff suspension related. He said that we should look at how RB18 and F1-75 ride over the kerbs at Barcelona S3 and here at turns 1, 5, chicane and other places around Monaco compared with W13 to see the real differentiator factor where they lose time over a lap ...

So what HAM said about their bouncing here was not a BS and it`s truly about their suspension& stuff lack of development after all ...
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
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Andi76
Andi76
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Re: Mercedes W13

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atanatizante wrote:
Sun May 29, 2022 1:30 pm
Andi76 wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 6:33 am
VacuousFlamboyant wrote:
Sat May 28, 2022 1:39 am

Different conditions. Barcelona was hot. In these conditions air is more sparse. Monaco is a coastal city-state and the temperature is low. Air is denser, thus almost everyone is suffering with porpoising. Daniel even crashed because of it. The track is also bumpier. That's a concern. Mercedes' suspension is much more linear and rebounds like a rodeo horse, instead of one from a dressage. Suspension itself, along with the bumps, is creating flow separation and severe hysteresis. Short term solution would be to run a soft setup.
For myself porpoising is an aerodynamic phenomenon caused by several things. It was explained many, many times, so i think there is no need to get further into this again. In Monaco its completely suspension related bouncing, so no porpoising in my book. Your explanation nailed it, thank you for that, but i would not call this porpoising. This was good old grounding, not porpoising. Anyway Monaco so far made it obvious, in my opinion at least, that Mercedes is still far away from Red Bull and Ferrari in terms of pace and the "Barcelona-sucess" was misinterpreted by a lot of people. There is no doubt that the Mercedes team itself is still one of the best in F1. Of course they do a better job and find better solutions on a well known track like Barcelona than Haas or Alpine. But at the end of the day they were still 0.6 to 1.0 seconds behind Red Bull and Ferrari. The performance so far in Monaco suggests that the step in Barcelona was indeed not as big as a lot of people thought and the car still has a lot of issues. Its performance aero-wise and also in terms of suspension is far from being able to give us a championship fight with three teams involved the gap between these teams has not really changed a lot if you look closely.
On another forum, someone said quoting a Merc engineer that the car is somewhere between 8 and 9 tenths in qualy pace and some 6-7 tenths in the race pace coz they were just concentrating on solving the porpoising issues. This time lost compared to the top teams is due to their delayed and thus lack of development to the suspension/damper/heave and all the stuff suspension related. He said that we should look at how RB18 and F1-75 ride over the kerbs at Barcelona S3 and here at turns 1, 5, chicane and other places around Monaco compared with W13 to see the real differentiator factor where they lose time over a lap ...

So what HAM said about their bouncing here was not a BS and it`s truly about their suspension& stuff lack of development after all ...

A performance deficit always comes from something of course. Suspension, as i said is definitely one of these areas. Aerodynamics is always hard to define, but i think the gap is too big to be related to the suspension alone, especially since the obvious aero-related problems in the first few races.

silver
silver
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Another 5th place finish for Russell! He is really performing so consistent. His weekend couldn't have been any better with this car. This bodes very well for Mercedes.